{"id":1395,"date":"2018-06-28T22:10:29","date_gmt":"2018-06-28T22:10:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=1395"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:51","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:51","slug":"shiur-points-6-25-18-beitza-35a","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=1395","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Points 6\/25\/18 Beitza 35a"},"content":{"rendered":"

Beitza 35a<\/span><\/p>\n

1- We went further into the idea of \u05e9\u05d1\u05ea \u05e7\u05d5\u05d1\u05e2\u05ea \u05dc\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

2- Our Gemara quotes a Mishnah concerning one who places a large amount of olives in an olive press. In general, the olives in the press are considered \u2018unfinished\u2019 since they are not meant to be eaten but to produce olive oil. So eating a few olives from the press would not require \u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8 as it is a \u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05ea \u05d0\u05e8\u05e2\u05d9<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

\u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05ea \u05d0\u05e8\u05e2\u05d9<\/p>\n

Now, when lunchtime comes along, this fellow \u05e4\u05e8\u05e2\u05e1\u05e2\u05e8 dips his hand into the press and removes 10 olives to munch on. This large amount of olives creates a \u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05ea \u05e7\u05d1\u05e2 \u00a0requiring \u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8 to be given.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

\u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05ea \u05e7\u05d1\u05e2<\/span><\/p>\n

However, according to Reb Eliezer, even if one takes out many olives,\u00a0 since the uneaten<\/strong> balance may be <\/span>returned <\/b>to the olive press, then all 10 olives are not considered \u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05ea \u05e7\u05d1\u05e2.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

3- Further in the Gemara we find the case of one that is holding a cluster of grapes. This cluster is not \u05d7\u05d9\u05d9\u05d1 \u05d1\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8. <\/span><\/p>\n

How is that? Rashi explains that \u2018generally, a cluster of grapes is considered ‘<\/span>unfinished\u2019’<\/i><\/b>. \u05dc\u05d0 \u05e0\u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d4 \u05de\u05dc\u05d0\u05db\u05ea\u05d5<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

We discussed the meaning of this: <\/span><\/p>\n

Was Rashi (who was a winemaker) referring specifically to wine grapes (only) that are usually not eaten? <\/span><\/p>\n

Or perhaps he was referring to all types of grapes,\u00a0 including ‘table grapes’, and it’s just that eating habits have changed since his time. Perhaps centuries ago, grapes were generally <\/span>not <\/b>consumed as food but only processed into wine. \u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

Table grapes were first planted in the USA in 1839<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n

Therefore grapes are considered \u2018unfinished\u2019 and not \u05d7\u05d9\u05d9\u05d1 \u05d1\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8 until they turn into wine.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

4- We spoke about \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea that have changed in time. A prime example is the carrot.<\/span><\/p>\n

The <\/span>Alter Rebbe<\/span><\/a> (11) writes that on raw carrots one makes \u05e9\u05d4\u05db\u05dc since it is not the normal way to eat them!\u00a0 Most people eat carrots when they are cooked.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"colorful<\/p>\n

\"purple<\/p>\n

Carrots, the way they used to look…no one ate these uncooked.<\/em><\/p>\n

When has this changed? Reb Zalman Shimon Dworkin (d. 1985) would say that one should indeed make \u00a0\u05e9\u05d4\u05db\u05dc on raw carrots. <\/span><\/p>\n

5- We spoke about perhaps another change. When one washes on bread all the other \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea on the food dishes that follow are not made. <\/span><\/p>\n

Why? <\/span><\/p>\n

\u2018<\/span>Because these items such as fish and meat are <\/span>usually <\/b>not eaten without bread\u2019<\/span><\/a>. (4,1) <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

Thus, the \u00a0\u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d4 \u05d4\u05de\u05d5\u05e6\u05d9\u05d0, applies on the balance of the meal. However, deserts, such as cake, since one eats cake also outside<\/strong> of the meal, the \u05d4\u05de\u05d5\u05e6\u05d9\u05d0 does not apply to them. <\/span><\/p>\n

Now let\u2019s think\u2026.. Who eats fish with bread today? Soup maybe. Sometimes. But are fish and meat \u2018usually eaten in a bread meal\u2019?<\/span><\/p>\n

In other words – is fish any different today, than say an apple, in regard to eating them with bread or in \u00a0a bread meal? <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

6- We discussed that the Alter Rebbe wrote these \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d5\u05ea in three places. <\/span><\/p>\n

1- \u05e9\u05d5\u05dc\u05d7\u05df \u05e2\u05e8\u05d5\u05da<\/span><\/p>\n

2- \u05dc\u05d5\u05d7 \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05e0\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05df <\/span><\/p>\n

3- \u05e1\u05d3\u05e8 \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05e0\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05df <\/span><\/p>\n

See the language <\/span>here <\/span><\/a>\u00a0his \u05e9\u05d5\u05dc\u05d7\u05df \u05e2\u05e8\u05d5\u05da. <\/span><\/p>\n

(177, 1) <\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d0 \u05d3\u05d1\u05e8\u05d9\u05dd \u05d4\u05d1\u05d0\u05d9\u05dd \u05d1\u05ea\u05d5\u05da \u05d4\u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 \u05d0\u05dd \u05d4\u05dd \u05d3\u05d1\u05e8\u05d9\u05dd \u05d4\u05d1\u05d0\u05d9\u05dd \u05de\u05d7\u05de\u05ea \u05d4\u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 \u05d3\u05d4\u05d9\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d3\u05d1\u05e8\u05d9\u05dd \u05e9\u05d3\u05e8\u05da \u05dc\u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 \u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 \u05e2\u05dc\u05d9\u05d4\u05dd<\/span>\u00a0\u05d1\u05d9\u05df \u05dc\u05dc\u05e4\u05ea \u05d1\u05d4\u05dd \u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05e4\u05ea<\/span>\u05d1<\/span><\/a> \u05db\u05d2\u05d5\u05df \u05d1\u05e9\u05e8 \u05d5\u05d3\u05d2\u05d9\u05dd<\/span>\u00a0\u05d5\u05d9\u05e8\u05e7\u05d5\u05ea<\/span>\u00a0\u05d5\u05d2\u05d1\u05d9\u05e0\u05d4 \u05d5\u05d1\u05d9\u05e6\u05d9\u05dd<\/span>\u00a0\u05d5\u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9 \u05de\u05dc\u05d5\u05d7\u05d9\u05dd\u00a0<\/span>\u05d1\u05d9\u05df \u05dc\u05de\u05d6\u05d5\u05df \u05d5\u05dc\u05d4\u05e9\u05d1\u05d9\u05e2<\/span>\u00a0\u05db\u05d2\u05d5\u05df \u05db\u05e8\u05d5\u05d1 \u05d5\u05ea\u05e8\u05d3\u05d9\u05df<\/span>\u00a0\u05d5\u05d3\u05d9\u05d9\u05e1\u05d0 \u05d5\u05db\u05dc \u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05d4 \u05e7\u05d3\u05e8\u05d4 \u05e9\u05d0\u05d9\u05e0\u05df \u05d1\u05d0\u05d9\u05df \u05dc\u05dc\u05e4\u05ea \u05d0\u05dc\u05d0 \u05dc\u05ea\u05d1\u05e9\u05d9\u05dc \u05d5\u05dc\u05de\u05d6\u05d5\u05df<\/span>\u00a0\u05d0”\u05e6 \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d4 \u05dc\u05e4\u05e0\u05d9\u05d4\u05dd \u05d0\u05e4\u05d9\u05dc\u05d5 \u05d0\u05d5\u05db\u05dc\u05dd \u05d1\u05dc\u05d0 \u05e4\u05ea \u05e9\u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05de\u05d5\u05e6\u05d9\u05d0 \u05e4\u05d5\u05d8\u05e8\u05ea\u05dd \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05dc\u05d0\u05d7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d4\u05dd \u05e9\u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05de\u05d6\u05d5\u05df \u05e4\u05d5\u05d8\u05e8\u05ea\u05dd<\/span>\u05d9<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

(<\/span>\u05e9\u05db\u05d9\u05d5\u05df \u05e9\u05d0\u05d9\u05df \u05d3\u05e8\u05db\u05dd\u00a0<\/b>\u00a0\u05dc\u05d0\u05db\u05d5\u05dc \u05d0\u05d5\u05ea\u05dd \u05db\u05dc \u05d4\u05d9\u05d5\u05dd \u05db\u05de\u05d5 \u05d4\u05e4\u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05ea \u05d0\u05dc\u05d0 \u05d1\u05e9\u05e2\u05ea \u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 <\/b>\u05d1\u05dc\u05d1\u05d3 \u05d4\u05e8\u05d9 \u05d4\u05dd \u05d8\u05e4\u05dc\u05d9\u05dd \u05dc\u05e4\u05ea \u05e9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d0 \u05e2\u05d9\u05e7\u05e8 \u05d4\u05e1\u05e2\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 \u05d5\u05dc\u05db\u05df \u05e0\u05e4\u05d8\u05e8\u05d9\u05dd \u05d1\u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05e4\u05ea \u05d0\u05e2”\u05e4 \u05e9\u05d0\u05d5\u05db\u05dc\u05dd \u05d1\u05dc\u05d0 \u05e4\u05ea\u00a0<\/span>).<\/span><\/p>\n

7- In connection to Birchas Hanehenin, this story was related:<\/p>\n

Once a rabbi arrived in town for a “prubbe”<\/em> to see if he was up to the task of becoming their Rav.<\/p>\n

They placed a sumptuous plate of various fruit in front of him and waited to see which fruit he would choose first, thereby demonstrating his Halachic acumen.<\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

When the the plate was brought before the rabbi, he blanched, unsure of which fruit to eat first. Turning to his hosts, he excused himself to use the facilities. Alone, he pulled out one of the above mentioned three sefarim struggling in vain to determine which fruit to eat first. Meanwhile, the townspeople proceeded to mix up and slice some of the fruit, thereby adding further layers of complexity to the question!<\/p>\n

Finally the rabbi returned, believing he could pull it off.<\/p>\n

Gazing upon the discombobulated plate of fruit again, his eyes fell and was stumped. Again he asks to be excused to use the facilities…..<\/p>\n

Until his return the townspeople added and removed and sliced some\u00a0 of the fruits.\u00a0 The Rabbi returns once again and could not figure out what Brocho to make.<\/p>\n

Another aged Talmid Chochom, realizing that this Rabbi was not up to par tells him:\u00a0” …\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9 \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05de\u05e6\u05d0 “.<\/p>\n

What did he mean with that? It was a classical ‘double entendre’.<\/a>\u00a0\u00a0[a\u00a0figure of speech\u00a0or a particular way of wording that is devised to be understood in two ways,]<\/p>\n

The Gemore says in Berochos (5,a)<\/p>\n

\u05d0\u05dd \u05e8\u05d5\u05d0\u05d4 \u05d0\u05d3\u05dd \u05e9\u05d9\u05e1\u05d5\u05e8\u05d9\u05df \u05d1\u05d0\u05d9\u05df \u05e2\u05dc\u05d9\u05d5 \u05d9\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9<\/strong> \u05d1\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05d9\u05d5 \u05e9\u05e0\u05d0’ “\u05e0\u05d7\u05e4\u05e9\u05d4 \u05d3\u05e8\u05db\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d5\u05e0\u05d7\u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05d5\u05e0\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4 \u05e2\u05d3 \u05d4’ ”<\/p>\n

\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9<\/strong> <\/em>\u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05de\u05e6\u05d0 \u05d9\u05ea\u05dc\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d1\u05d8\u05d5\u05dc \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05e9\u05e0\u05d0\u05de\u05e8 “\u05d0\u05e9\u05e8\u05d9 \u05d4\u05d2\u05d1\u05e8 \u05d0\u05e9\u05e8 \u05ea\u05d9\u05e1\u05e8\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d9\u05d4 \u05d5\u05de\u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05ea\u05da \u05ea\u05dc\u05de\u05d3\u05e0\u05d5”<\/p>\n

When a person sees that he is afflicted with pain and wonders as to why he deserved to be punished from Above, he should first reflect on his actions . \u05d9\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9 \u05d1\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05d9\u05d5.<\/p>\n

If he can’t find anything wrong in his way of life……\u00a0\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9<\/strong> <\/em>\u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05de\u05e6\u05d0…..\u00a0 he should attribute his pain to his \u05d1\u05d9\u05d8\u05d5\u05dc \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4.<\/p>\n

So the old Talmid Chochom meant to say:<\/p>\n

\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9 \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05de\u05e6\u05d0…… meaning that this ‘Rabbi did \u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9 twice….. and still can’t figure out the proper \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d4… so one must attribute his lack of knowledge to his own \u05d1\u05d9\u05d8\u05d5\u05dc \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4……..<\/p>\n

\u05e4\u05e9\u05e4\u05e9<\/strong> <\/em>\u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05de\u05e6\u05d0 \u05d9\u05ea\u05dc\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d1\u05d8\u05d5\u05dc \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

<\/h1>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Beitza 35a 1- We went further into the idea of \u05e9\u05d1\u05ea \u05e7\u05d5\u05d1\u05e2\u05ea \u05dc\u05de\u05e2\u05e9\u05e8. 2- Our Gemara quotes a Mishnah concerning one who places a large amount of olives in an olive press. In general, the olives in the press are considered \u2018unfinished\u2019 since they are not meant to be eaten but to produce olive oil. … Continue reading Shiur Points 6\/25\/18 Beitza 35a<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1395","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1395","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1395"}],"version-history":[{"count":11,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1395\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1415,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1395\/revisions\/1415"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1395"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1395"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1395"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}