{"id":2534,"date":"2021-12-16T21:32:54","date_gmt":"2021-12-16T21:32:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2534"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","slug":"shiur-sukkah-31a-b","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2534","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Sukkah 31a-b – 12\/14\/21"},"content":{"rendered":"

Sukkah 31a-b<\/span><\/p>\n

Teves 10, 5782. December 14, 2021<\/span><\/p>\n

1- We continued with the \u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05d4 for \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc\u05d9 \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

In general, if an item that was stolen is intact, the only way for a proper \u2018return\u2019 \u05d5\u05d4\u05e9\u05d9\u05d1 \u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05d2\u05d6\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4, is to return the actual item. Paying cash to the rightful owner is insufficient.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Reclaimed<\/p>\n

However, if the thief had the stolen item imbedded or cemented into his home, the \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd allowed him to just pay the owner the value of the item stolen.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"How<\/p>\n

Steal Beam.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

That is called <\/span>\u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05ea \u05de\u05e8\u05d9\u05e9<\/b>. The \u2018enactment of a beam\u2019.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The logic is that requiring the potential \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4 to destroy his home would inhibit his want and ability to do \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05e8\u05de\u05d1”\u05dd \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d5\u05ea \u05d2\u05d6\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4 \u05d5\u05d0\u05d1\u05d9\u05d3\u05d4 \u00b7 \u05e4\u05e8\u05e7 \u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d5\u05df \u00b7 \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d4 \u05d4<\/a><\/p>\n

\u05d0\u05e4\u05d9\u05dc\u05d5 \u05d2\u05d6\u05dc \u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05d4 \u05d5\u05d1\u05e0\u05d0\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d1\u05d9\u05e8\u05d4 \u05d4\u05d5\u05d0\u05d9\u05dc \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05e0\u05e9\u05ea\u05e0\u05d9\u05ea \u05d3\u05d9\u05df \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05d4\u05d5\u05d0 \u05e9\u05d9\u05d4\u05e8\u05d5\u05e1 \u05d0\u05ea \u05db\u05dc \u05d4\u05d1\u05e0\u05d9\u05df \u05d5\u05d9\u05d7\u05d6\u05d9\u05e8 \u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05dc\u05d1\u05e2\u05dc\u05d9\u05d4. \u05d0\u05d1\u05dc \u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd \u05de\u05e4\u05e0\u05d9 \u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05ea \u05d4\u05e9\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd \u05e9\u05d9\u05d4\u05d9\u05d4 \u05e0\u05d5\u05ea\u05df \u05d0\u05ea \u05d3\u05de\u05d9\u05d4 \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05d9\u05e4\u05e1\u05d9\u05d3 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e0\u05d9\u05df \u05d5\u05db\u05df \u05db\u05dc \u05db\u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 \u05d1\u05d6\u05d4. \u05d0\u05e4\u05d9\u05dc\u05d5 \u05d2\u05d6\u05dc \u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05d5\u05e2\u05e9\u05d0\u05d4 \u05d1\u05e1\u05d5\u05db\u05ea \u05d4\u05d7\u05d2 \u05d5\u05d1\u05d0 \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc \u05d4\u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05dc\u05ea\u05d5\u05d1\u05e2\u05d4 \u05d1\u05ea\u05d5\u05da \u05d4\u05d7\u05d2 \u05e0\u05d5\u05ea\u05df \u05dc\u05d5 \u05d0\u05ea \u05d3\u05de\u05d9\u05d4<\/strong>. \u05d0\u05d1\u05dc \u05d0\u05d7\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d7\u05d2 \u05d4\u05d5\u05d0\u05d9\u05dc \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05e0\u05e9\u05ea\u05e0\u05d9\u05ea \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05d1\u05e0\u05d0\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d8\u05d9\u05d8 \u05de\u05d7\u05d6\u05d9\u05e8 \u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05e7\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05e2\u05e6\u05de\u05d4.<\/p>\n

\"Historic<\/p>\n

2- Mendel Nemenov pointed us to the Gemore\u00a0 (16a)\u00a0 in <\/span>\u05ea\u05e2\u05e0\u05d9\u05ea <\/span><\/a>that the people of Nineveh expressed their sincere \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4, by going all the way. They ripped out stolen beams from their homes (even if it demolished an entire grand house) and returned them to their<\/span> rightful owners.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d0\u05de\u05e8 \u05e9\u05de\u05d5\u05d0\u05dc: \u05d0\u05e4\u05d9\u05dc\u05d5 \u05d2\u05d6\u05dc \u05de\u05e8\u05d9\u05e9 \u05d5\u05d1\u05e0\u05d0\u05d5 \u05d1\u05d1\u05d9\u05e8\u05d4 \u05de\u05e7\u05e2\u05e7\u05e2 \u05db\u05dc \u05d4\u05d1\u05d9\u05e8\u05d4 \u05db\u05d5\u05dc\u05d4 \u05d5\u05de\u05d7\u05d6\u05d9\u05e8 \u05de\u05e8\u05d9\u05e9 \u05dc\u05d1\u05e2\u05dc\u05d9\u05d5.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"JUF<\/p>\n

2- By extension, this \u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05d4 applies for the 7 days of Sukkos. If one stole \u05e1\u05db\u05da, although it is obviously still intact, he may use the Sukkah but he needs\u00a0 to pay the owner the value of the \u05e1\u05db\u05da.\u00a0 AR 637, 5.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"High<\/p>\n

Oops…should’ve kept the beam\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n

3 – We mentioned the old quip about G-D telling \u05de\u05e9\u05d4 \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5:<\/span><\/p>\n

.\u05db\u05b5\u05bc\u05df \u05d1\u05b0\u05bc\u05e0\u05d5\u05b9\u05ea \u05e6\u05b0\u05dc\u05b8\u05e4\u05b0\u05d7\u05b8\u05d3 \u05d3\u05b9\u05bc\u05d1\u05b0\u05e8\u05b9\u05ea<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Daughters<\/p>\n

4- We spoke about the \u05dc\u05d0 \u05ea\u05e2\u05e9\u05d4 of \u05dc\u05d0 \u05ea\u05d2\u05e8\u05e2. Meaning do not \u2018reduce\u2019 any Mitzvah.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The famous \u05d8\u05d5\u05e8\u05d9 \u05d0\u05d1\u05df<\/a> that when one takes only 3 of the \u05d0\u05e8\u05d1\u05e2 \u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd, that is not \u05dc\u05d0 \u05ea\u05d2\u05e8\u05e2.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

More on this next week. \u05d1\u05dc\u201d\u05e0.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

5- The Gemore says that if one cannot get his hands on fresh\u00a0 \u05d0\u05e8\u05d1\u05e2 \u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd\u00a0<\/span>he should at the very least use ones that are completely dry. \u05e9\u05dc\u05d0 \u05ea\u05e9\u05db\u05d7 \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05ea \u05d0\u05e8\u05d1\u05e2 \u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"2,070<\/p>\n

The using of non \u05db\u05e9\u05e8 \u05d0\u05e8\u05d1\u05e2 \u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd is a big topic with many details. Some \u05e4\u05e1\u05d5\u05dc\u05d9\u05df\u00a0 can be used even with a \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d4, others with out and some none at all.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"make<\/p>\n

See here<\/a>. Alter Rebbe 649. 22-24.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

6 – The color issue. Please see below for Zev Sero\u2019s well researched comment.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Cool<\/p>\n

Here are the general parameters as per Tosfos:\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"What<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

The Gemara uses the term:\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 \u05db\u05db\u05e8\u05ea\u05d9<\/b>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Yarok like leek<\/b>.\u00a0<\/b><\/em><\/p>\n

What color is Yarok?\u00a0 And what color is leek?<\/span><\/p>\n

That would seem simple enough, since leek is <\/span>green<\/i><\/b>.\u00a0 So Yarok must be green.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

However, we find that Yarok is used as a color that is similar to blue. \u05ea\u05db\u05dc\u05ea \u05dc\u05db\u05e8\u05ea\u05d9.\u00a0 So Yorok it seems, is (also) a shade of <\/span>blue<\/i><\/b>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"File:Flag<\/p>\n

Elsewhere we find that Yarok is (also) a shade of <\/span>yellow<\/i><\/b>!<\/span><\/p>\n

7- We mentioned the controversy of William Gladstone who seemed to say that humans in the past were unable to discern the full color spectrum.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

https:\/\/coloriasto.blogspot.com\/2015\/01\/w-e-gladstone-color-sense.html?m=1<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

To be continued.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"24<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

————————————————————————–<\/span><\/p>\n

From Zev Sero<\/span><\/p>\n

Leeks are of course green.<\/span><\/p>\n

In lashon Torah \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 means green.\u00a0 But in leshon Chazal it means *both*<\/span><\/p>\n

green and yellow.\u00a0 They could easily tell the difference, but they only<\/span><\/p>\n

had one word for both.\u00a0 The word \u05e6\u05d4\u05d5\u05d1, which means yellow in leshon<\/span><\/p>\n

torah and also in Ivrit, didn’t exist in their language.\u00a0 So they<\/span><\/p>\n

distinguished between the two meanings of \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 by saying \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 \u05db\u05db\u05e8\u05ea\u05d9,<\/span><\/p>\n

yarok like leek, or \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 \u05db\u05db\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05dd, yarok like saffron. \u00a0 An esrog has to<\/span><\/p>\n

be yarok like saffron, and not yarok like leek.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Green<\/p>\n

The gemara in Chulin starts out saying that a lung that is \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 is<\/span><\/p>\n

kosher, but not if it looks like an egg.\u00a0 So what kind of \u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u05e7 lung is<\/span><\/p>\n

kosher?\u00a0 One that is like leek. In other words green is kosher but<\/span><\/p>\n

yellow is treif.<\/span><\/p>\n

Note also that the Mekubolim often talk of gold as being \u05d0\u05d3\u05d5\u05dd.\u00a0 It’s<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Classic<\/p>\n

true that some gold does look red because of impurities, but it’s more\u00a0<\/span>that they didn’t have a word for “yellow”, so they called it \u05d0\u05d3\u05d5\u05dd and associated it with gevurah. \u00a0 This is helped by the fact that gold is<\/p>\n

also called \u05db\u05ea\u05dd in Hebrew (as in \u05d4\u05db\u05ea\u05dd \u05d4\u05d8\u05d5\u05d1, or\u00a0 \u05db\u05ea\u05dd \u05d8\u05d4\u05d5\u05e8 \u05e4\u05d6 \u05d3\u05de\u05d5\u05ea \u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d5),<\/span><\/p>\n

and of course we automatically associate \u05db\u05ea\u05dd with \u05db\u05ea\u05de\u05d9\u05dd, which are red…<\/span><\/p>\n

But they may also have been influenced by medieval poetry which<\/span><\/p>\n

described gold as “red”<\/span><\/p>\n

https:\/\/earthandstarryheaven.com\/2016\/07\/06\/red-gold\/<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Homer described the sea as “wine-dark” and many scholars broke their<\/span><\/p>\n

heads trying to explain what he meant by that.\u00a0 See<\/span><\/p>\n

https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Wine-dark_sea_(Homer)<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

But according to a friend of mine who’s spent some time in Greece:<\/span><\/p>\n

“If you go to Greece and look at the sea, from a boat, the deep sea, not<\/span><\/p>\n

just offshore, you will find that it is a very unique colour, unlike<\/span><\/p>\n

anything else but in fact undeniably “wine-dark”. Patrick O’Brian is<\/span><\/p>\n

wrong about this, wine-dark sea isn’t sea the colour of green white<\/span><\/p>\n

wine. It’s a particular shade of blue which is the same shade, though<\/span><\/p>\n

not the same colour, as dark red wine. It’s unmistakable. I’ve only<\/span><\/p>\n

ever seen this in the Aegean, but the reaction of everyone I’ve ever<\/span><\/p>\n

pointed it out to has been “Oh yes. Wine-dark sea.” It’s a purely<\/span><\/p>\n

descriptive term.”<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

As for different languages perceptions of colours, consider that we<\/span><\/p>\n

English-speakers easily distinguish pink from red, and don’t think of<\/span><\/p>\n

them as shades of the same colour at all.\u00a0 Likewise we don’t see orange<\/span><\/p>\n

and brown as shades of the same colour.\u00a0 And yet when we look at the<\/span><\/p>\n

colours that in Ivrit are called \u05db\u05d7\u05d5\u05dc and \u05ea\u05db\u05dc\u05ea, which native<\/span><\/p>\n

Hebrew-speakers think of as completely separate colours, we see two<\/span><\/p>\n

shades of the same colour.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Russian-speakers also see them as two completely different colours.\u00a0 A<\/span><\/p>\n

study was done comparing the ability of native English-speakers and<\/span><\/p>\n

Russian-speakers to distinguish different shades of blue; they were<\/span><\/p>\n

shown three blue squares, two of which were the same and one was<\/span><\/p>\n

different.\u00a0 Russian-speakers were quicker to pick the odd one out,<\/span><\/p>\n

presumably because their language wired their brains to distinguish the<\/span><\/p>\n

shades more easily. \u00a0 <\/span>https:\/\/rdcu.be\/cDeBD<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

On the whole topic of colour names, see<\/span><\/p>\n

https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_color_naming_debate<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

According to this theory:<\/span><\/p>\n

    \n
  1. All languages contain terms for black and white.<\/span><\/li>\n
  2. If a language contains three terms, then it contains a term for red.<\/span><\/li>\n
  3. If a language contains four terms, then it contains a term for<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    either green or yellow (but not both).<\/span><\/p>\n

      \n
    1. If a language contains five terms, then it contains terms for<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

      both green and yellow.<\/span><\/p>\n

        \n
      1. If a language contains six terms, then it contains a term for blue.<\/span><\/li>\n
      2. If a language contains seven terms, then it contains a term for<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

        brown.<\/span><\/p>\n

          \n
        1. If a language contains eight or more terms, then it contains<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

          terms for purple, pink, orange or gray.<\/span><\/p>\n

           <\/p>\n

          It seems that Chazal were at stage 3, while the Torah was at at least 4<\/span><\/p>\n

          but probably 6, because the word \u05d7\u05d5\u05dd appears in the Torah, which seems<\/span><\/p>\n

          to mean “brown”, as it does in Ivrit.\u00a0 If so it’s odd that no word for<\/span><\/p>\n

          “blue” appears.\u00a0 (\u05ea\u05db\u05dc\u05ea and \u05d0\u05e8\u05d2\u05de\u05df and \u05e9\u05e0\u05d9 in the Torah are not colours,<\/span><\/p>\n

          but names for dyed wool. So Moshe Rabbenu could describe the colour<\/span><\/p>\n

          purple by saying “the same colour as \u05d0\u05e8\u05d2\u05de\u05df”, but he had no word for the<\/span><\/p>\n

          colour itself.)<\/span><\/p>\n

           <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

          Sukkah 31a-b Teves 10, 5782. December 14, 2021 1- We continued with the \u05ea\u05e7\u05e0\u05d4 for \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc\u05d9 \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4.\u00a0 In general, if an item that was stolen is intact, the only way for a proper \u2018return\u2019 \u05d5\u05d4\u05e9\u05d9\u05d1 \u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05d2\u05d6\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4, is to return the actual item. Paying cash to the rightful owner is insufficient.\u00a0 However, if the thief … Continue reading Shiur Sukkah 31a-b – 12\/14\/21<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2534","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2534","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=2534"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2534\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2539,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2534\/revisions\/2539"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=2534"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=2534"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=2534"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}