{"id":2563,"date":"2022-01-05T21:09:39","date_gmt":"2022-01-05T21:09:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2563"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","slug":"shiur-sukkah-32b-01-04-2022","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2563","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Sukkah 32b 01\/04\/2022"},"content":{"rendered":"

BSD<\/span><\/p>\n

Sukkah 32b<\/span><\/p>\n

Shvat 2, 5782. January 4, 2022<\/span><\/p>\n

1-\u00a0 <\/span>Lulav<\/b> – We discussed the date palm tree and its many species.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Show<\/p>\n

2- <\/span>\u05e6\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9 \u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e8\u05d6\u05dc<\/b>\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Our Mishna discusses a Lulav – palm trees – from a place called \u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e8\u05d6\u05dc. While this area is on the East Bank of the Jordan River, the \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 says that such an area of palm trees also existed right outside the walls of Yerushalayim.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Iron<\/p>\n

\u2018<\/span>Two palm trees are in the valley of Hinom. Smoke arises in between them. These trees are of the <\/span><\/i>\u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e8\u05d6\u05dc <\/i><\/b>species and are OK to use as a Lulav. And that site, where the smoke escapes from, is the door to <\/span><\/i>\u05d2\u05d9\u05d4\u05e0\u05d5\u05dd! \u2019<\/i><\/b><\/p>\n

\"Trees<\/p>\n

Holy smoke\u2026.<\/span><\/p>\n

We discussed the opinion of some that there is an actual physical \u05d2\u05df \u05e2\u05d3\u05df and \u05d2\u05d9\u05d4\u05e0\u05d5\u05dd on earth.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Garden<\/p>\n

3- <\/span>Canary Island<\/a> palm trees- \u05d4\u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 \u05d4\u05e7\u05e0\u05e8\u05d9<\/b><\/p>\n

These islands are off the Moroccan coast<\/a><\/strong><\/span> . They are famous as a tourist destination and infamous for a multiple airplane<\/span><\/a> tragedy that happened there in 1977.<\/p>\n

The controversy about the species of the Canary Island palm trees to use for \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Phoenix<\/p>\n

The question was\/is if these Canary date palms are the same species as the standard palm trees that have been used for thousands of years.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Some say that they are \u05e4\u05e1\u05d5\u05dc and one should not make a \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d4\u00a0 on them, even if its the only \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 available. Others allow it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Until this came to the forefront in 1978, this was the \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 species used by many in some countries!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

See here:\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

https:\/\/www.torahmusings.com\/2016\/10\/trees-count-lulav-trees\/<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Phoenix_canariensis<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

https:\/\/www.ebay.com\/itm\/392769132989<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

(Thanks to Zev Sero for the above 2 links)\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

4 – <\/span>\u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05d5\u05e2<\/b><\/p>\n

We discussed the phrase in the Gemara that the \u05d4\u05d3\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd need to be 3 \u05d8\u05e4\u05d7\u05d9\u05dd in length and the Lulav an <\/span>additional <\/b>\u05d8\u05e4\u05d7. And here are the crucial words: \u05db\u05d3\u05d9 \u05dc\u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05e2.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Meaning that this extra \u05d8\u05e4\u05d7 that the Lulav extends above the \u05d4\u05d3\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd is for the purpose of \u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05d5\u05e2.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

What is \u05dc\u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05e2? Is it to shake, flap and wiggle. Or perhaps just to \u2018move from side to side\u2019 or to \u2018wave\u2019?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Close-up<\/p>\n

If it means for the top of the Lulav to shake loosely, we have the issue of all the closed \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd (with the layer of brown growth) or the \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd that have a \u05e7\u05e0\u05e2\u05e4\u05e2\u05dc as discussed in a previous shiur. These \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd are stiff and do not wiggle at all!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

It would seem that if the Lulav needs (as per the \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 above) to extend <\/span>above <\/i><\/b>the \u05d4\u05d3\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd\u00a0 for\u00a0 \u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05e2\u05d9\u05dd , then it must mean to wiggle and shake. For if it is just to \u2018move\u2019, then what does this extra \u05d8\u05e4\u05d7 accomplish? It moves even if it’s the <\/span>same <\/i><\/b>length as the \u05d4\u05d3\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

This is a topic that we find discussed by some. For starters, the \u05e8\u05de\u201d\u05d0 writes explicitly (651, 9) that one needs to <\/span>wiggle <\/i><\/b>the Lulav.\u00a0 <\/span>\u05de\u05db\u05e1\u05db\u05e1 <\/i><\/b>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But is this the actual \u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05d5\u05e2? A bit unclear. <\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

We mentioned the \u05de\u05d0\u05d9\u05e8\u05d9 that writes that some actually bring proof from our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 that a \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1\u00a0 <\/span>must <\/b>be loose enough to shake and wiggle! He argues and says that all we need is the <\/span>ability <\/i><\/b>to wiggle, thus the extra \u05d8\u05e4\u05d7\u00a0 to protrude over the \u05d4\u05d3\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd, but no actual wiggling is required. <\/span><\/p>\n

He uses the term \u05db\u05dc \u05d4\u05e8\u05d0\u05d5\u05d9<\/a> \u05dc\u05d1\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"An<\/p>\n

The \u05d1\u05d9\u05db\u05d5\u05e8\u05d9 \u05d9\u05e2\u05e7\u05d1<\/a>\u00a0 says that the \u05e8\u05d9\u05d8\u05d1\u201d\u05d0 says that , \u05e7\u05e9\u05e7\u05d5\u05e9 , a real shakin\u2019 is a must! And he wonders as to why no \u05e4\u05d5\u05e1\u05e7\u05d9\u05dd mention this \u05d7\u05d9\u05d5\u05d1.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Lulav<\/p>\n

See<\/span> here<\/span><\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

So we have 3 opinions.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A<\/em>– Stiff with no wiggling. No shaking is needed. \u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05d5\u05e2 means \u2018moving\u2019. \u05d2\u05d0\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

B<\/em>– Full shaking and flapping of the upper part of the \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 the \u00a0 <\/span>. \u05e8\u05de\u201d\u05d0, \u05e8\u05d9\u05d8\u05d1\u201d\u05d0<\/b>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

C<\/em>– The <\/span>ability <\/b>to be wiggled. <\/span>\u05de\u05d0\u05d9\u05e8\u05d9<\/b>, Chabad and others.<\/span><\/p>\n

5-\u00a0 \u00a0 <\/span>\u05db\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd \u05de\u05d9\u05d5\u05d7\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd<\/b><\/p>\n

We mentioned the interesting topic of \u2018who is a real \u05db\u05d4\u05df\u2019?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Who<\/p>\n

There is a \u05e7\u05d1\u05dc\u05d4 from the \u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd that if 300 \u05db\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd would circle the \u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d6\u05d9\u05ea\u05d9\u05dd Moshiach will arrive.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d1<\/span>\u05e1\u05e4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05e8\u05e7\u05d7<\/span><\/a> (\u05e4\u05e8\u05e9\u05ea \u05ea\u05e6\u05d5\u05d5\u05d4) \u05dc\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9<\/span> \u05d0\u05dc\u05e2\u05d6\u05e8 \u05de\u05d5\u05d5\u05e8\u05de\u05d9\u05d9\u05d6\u05d0<\/span><\/a> \u05de\u05d5\u05d1\u05d0:”\u05d0\u05dd \u05d4\u05d9\u05d5 \u05e9\u05dc\u05d5\u05e9 \u05de\u05d0\u05d5\u05ea \u05db\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd \u05e2\u05d5\u05de\u05d3\u05d9\u05dd \u05d1<\/span>\u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d6\u05d9\u05ea\u05d9\u05dd<\/span><\/a> \u05d5\u05d4\u05d9\u05d5 \u05d0\u05d5\u05de\u05e8\u05d9\u05dd \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05ea \u05db\u05d4\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd, \u05d4\u05d9\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d0 \u05d4\u05de\u05e9\u05d9\u05d7”.<\/span><\/p>\n

See<\/span> here<\/span><\/a>. (Thank you Dani for this source)\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

We spoke about the story brought in a certain edition of the \u05e1\u05e4\u05e8 \u05d7\u05e1\u05d9\u05d3\u05d9\u05dd\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0(\u05de\u05e7\u201d\u05e0\u00a0 \u05ea\u05e8\u05dc)\u00a0 ,about Rav Hai Gaon who tried to do the above circling and,\u00a0 as we sadly know\u2026. it didn\u2019t work\u2026.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

When he met \u05d0\u05dc\u05d9\u05d4\u05d5 \u05d4\u05e0\u05d1\u05d9\u05d0 he asked him why was not he\u00a0 successful in bringing \u05de\u05e9\u05d9\u05d7?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Thousands<\/p>\n

\u05d0\u05dc\u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u00a0 responded that from all the Kohanim gathered there, only one<\/strong> was was a <\/span>real <\/b>\u05db\u05d4\u05df, a descendant of \u05d0\u05d4\u05e8\u05df \u05d4\u05db\u05d4\u05df, and he\u00a0 \u05dc”\u05e2 was\u00a0 half blind and a limping \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc \u05de\u05d5\u05dd!!!<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Lakewood<\/p>\n

See here<\/a> <\/strong><\/span>about the DNA tests that generated much debate a few years back. Some said it can show a direct lineage to \u05d0\u05d4\u05e8\u05df \u05d4\u05db\u05d4\u05df.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

However, see here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

We finish with a good note.\u00a0 \u05d5\u05de\u05e1\u05d9\u05d9\u05de\u05d9\u05df \u05d1\u05d8\u05d5\u05d1<\/p>\n

Moshiach now!<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

BSD Sukkah 32b Shvat 2, 5782. January 4, 2022 1-\u00a0 Lulav – We discussed the date palm tree and its many species.\u00a0 2- \u05e6\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9 \u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e8\u05d6\u05dc\u00a0\u00a0 Our Mishna discusses a Lulav – palm trees – from a place called \u05d4\u05e8 \u05d4\u05d1\u05e8\u05d6\u05dc. While this area is on the East Bank of the Jordan River, the \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 … Continue reading Shiur Sukkah 32b 01\/04\/2022<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2563","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2563","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=2563"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2563\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4219,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2563\/revisions\/4219"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=2563"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=2563"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=2563"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}