{"id":2944,"date":"2022-08-25T12:22:22","date_gmt":"2022-08-25T12:22:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2944"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:48","slug":"shiur-sukkah-42a-08-23-22","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=2944","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Sukkah 42a 08\/23\/22"},"content":{"rendered":"

BS\u201dD<\/span><\/p>\n

Sukkah 42a (2)\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Menachem Av 26, 5782. August 23, 2022\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Many topics were covered at the shiur. Here are some short notes.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

1- We discussed two methods in regards to a \u201c\u05d7\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5\u05e9\u201d. For example if one comes up with an idea, a \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

He now realizes that with this \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 he can answer a though question posed by Tosfos.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Opened<\/p>\n

Now, we can proceed wit<\/span>h this \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 in two ways.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A- He can say: This \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 is brilliant! It is so logical that it succeeded to answer a question of no other than the \u05d1\u05e2\u05dc\u05d9 \u05d4\u05ea\u05d5\u05e1\u05e4\u05d5\u05ea. Wow!<\/span><\/p>\n

\"200+<\/p>\n

B- The \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 is not valid for otherwise Tosfos would have written it. To put it differently:\u00a0 You<\/strong> <\/span>answered Tosfo\u2019s question? Really. You know what they didn\u2019t? Obviously, your \u2018logical\u2019 \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 is no \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 at all. Go back and figure out where you erred.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

2- In the old Yeshiva world these two outlooks on \u05d7\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5\u05e9\u05d9\u05dd, were common when a \u05d1\u05d7\u05d5\u05e8 attempted to answer a \u05e6\u201d\u05e2 of Reb Akiva Eiger. Where in one Yeshiva he would be praised as a originator and \u05de\u05d7\u05d3\u05e9 at another Yeshiva he would be ridiculed. \u201cYou obviously didn\u2019t grasp Reb Akiva Eiger\u2019s question to begin with. Obviously Reb Akiva Eiger knew what your feeble\u00a0 brain thought of\u2026.. and discounted it\u201d!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

31a – \u05d5\u05e6\u05e2”\u05d2<\/p>\n

3- We find this approach in regards to an interesting question about \u05d5\u05dc\u05e7\u05d7\u05ea\u05dd \u05dc\u05db\u05dd. <\/span><\/p>\n

Taking\/picking up<\/strong> (lifting) a Lulav, \u05dc\u05e7\u05d9\u05d7\u05d4\u00a0 or just holding<\/strong> a Lulav, \u05d0\u05d7\u05d9\u05d6\u05d4 ? <\/span><\/p>\n

What if one does not lift it? What if someone sticks it into your hand. Your are holding<\/strong> it indeed, but you didn\u2019t lift<\/strong> it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Jewish<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Another scenario: The Mitzvah of the\u00a0 \u05d3\u2019 \u05de\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd begins at sunrise\u00a0 \u05e0\u05e5 \u05d4\u05d7\u05de\u05d4. If one picks up the Lulav <\/span>before <\/span><\/i>sunrise and then holds it in his hands until sunrise occurs. Same question- he lifted it before the \u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05d7\u05d9\u05d5\u05d1,\u00a0 but is holding it after \u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05d7\u05d9\u05d5\u05d1.<\/span><\/p>\n

Is he \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0? Is holding<\/strong> it without lifting<\/strong> sufficient?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"meiron<\/p>\n

We find \u05d0\u05d7\u05e8\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd that discuss this scenario.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So in our Gemara we see\u00a0 an attempt to find a case of someone that picked up a Lulav but was not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 until later. It offers 2 answers. Holding it upside down (not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0) and then turning it right side up (\u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 ) , or lifting it when it\u2019s in a cheap vase (not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0) and then removing it from the vase (\u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0) .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Why didn\u2019t the Gemara suggest a case of lifting it before the \u05d6\u05de\u05df and holding onto it until after the \u05d6\u05de\u05df?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Candle<\/p>\n

Here we have the two approaches:\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A- Brilliant answer (meaning he is<\/strong> \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0, despite not lifting it \u05d1\u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05d7\u05d9\u05d5\u05d1) but the Gemara believes the 2 answers above are better or more common.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

B- Obviously, since the Gemara didn’t offer this suggestion it means that one is not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 even though he is still <\/span>holding <\/b>onto the Lulav after the \u05e0\u05e5, since he didn\u2019t <\/span>lift <\/b>it <\/span>after <\/span><\/i>the \u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05d7\u05d9\u05d5\u05d1.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

4- We mention the \u05d1\u05d9\u05db\u05d5\u05e8\u05d9 \u05d9\u05e2\u05e7\u05d1 and the <\/span>story<\/strong> <\/span><\/a><\/span>of Reb Bunem<\/a>, brother of the \u05e8\u2019 \u05e2\u05e7\u05d9\u05d1\u05d0 \u05d0\u05d9\u05d2\u05e8 and the\u00a0 \u05d7\u05ea\u05dd \u05e1\u05d5\u05e4\u05e8 that had argued about this question. \u05de\u05d7\u05e0\u05d4 \u05d7\u05d9\u05d9\u05dd \u05d0\u05d5\u201d\u05d7 \u05de\u05d8.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

5- \u05db\u05e9\u05d4\u05e4\u05db\u05d5. \u00a0 Usually translated as \u2018upside down\u2019. Discussed the \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d7\u05e0\u05e0\u05d0\u05dc\u00a0 that translate the Gemara \u201che picked up opposite\u201d, to mean he took the Lulav in his left hand and the Esrog in his right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"List<\/p>\n

6- \u05d8\u05e2\u05d4 \u05d1\u05d3\u05d1\u05e8 \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05d4. The Gemara discusses a case of someone that ate a \u05e2\u05d5\u05dc\u05ea \u05d4\u05e2\u05d5\u05e3 thinking is was a \u05d7\u05d8\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05e2\u05d5\u05e3.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

We mentioned the Chassidishe vort from the \u05e9\u05dd \u05de\u05e9\u05de\u05d5\u05d0\u05dc as to why an \u05e2\u05d5\u05dc\u05ea \u05d4\u05e2\u05d5\u05e3 ‘s head is severed from the body as opposed to a \u05d7\u05d8\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05e2\u05d5\u05e3 that it is prohibited to separate the head from the body. \u05d5\u05dc\u05d0 \u05d9\u05d1\u05d3\u05d9\u05dc. \u05e4\u05e8\u05e9\u05ea \u05d5\u05d9\u05e7\u05e8\u05d0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"\"\"<\/p>\n

7- Discussed the question of the \u05de\u05d4\u05e8\u05e9\u201d\u05dc See here in the <\/span>Taz 657<\/span><\/a>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Briefly –\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Boy<\/p>\n

Our Mishnah:\u00a0 \u05e7\u05b8\u05d8\u05b8\u05df \u05d4\u05b7\u05d9\u05bc\u05d5\u05b9\u05d3\u05b5\u05e2\u05b7 \u05dc\u05b0\u05e0\u05b7\u05e2\u05b0\u05e0\u05b5\u05e2\u05b7, \u05d7\u05b7\u05d9\u05bc\u05b8\u05d1 \u05d1\u05bc\u05b7\u05dc\u05bc\u05d5\u05bc\u05dc\u05b8\u05d1:<\/span><\/p>\n

Shulchan Aruch 657: \u05e7\u05d8\u05df \u05d4\u05d9\u05d5\u05d3\u05e2 \u05dc\u05e0\u05e2\u05e0\u05e2 \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 \u05db\u05d3\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5 \u05d0\u05d1\u05d9\u05d5 \u05d7\u05d9\u05d9\u05d1 \u05dc\u05e7\u05e0\u05d5\u05ea \u05dc\u05d5 \u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1 \u05db\u05d3\u05d9 \u05dc\u05d7\u05e0\u05db\u05d5 \u05d1\u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05ea:<\/span><\/p>\n

Why does the Shulchan Aruch change the text? The Mishna doesn’t say that a father needs to <\/span>buy <\/b>his son a Lulav.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The simple answer of the famed <\/span>Reb Shimon Sofer<\/span><\/a>, the grandson of the Chasam Sofer who was murdered in Aushwitz at the age of 95! Also known as the Erloyer<\/a> (Erlauer) Rov. <\/span>Here<\/span><\/a>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

R’ Shimon Sofer HY”D<\/p>\n

The Mishnah was referring to\u00a0 \u05d0\u05e8\u05e5 \u05d9\u05e9\u05e8\u05d0\u05dc where there is only one day Yom Tov. So after the father does the Mitzvah with his Lulav he can give it to his young son. The fact that the son will not be able to give it back to his father is not an issue because from the second day onward, \u05dc\u05db\u05dd is not needed. The son can loan it back to his father.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"An<\/p>\n

In \u05d7\u05d5\u05e5 \u05dc\u05d0\u05e8\u05e5 however, on the second day \u05dc\u05db\u05dd is still required, so the father cannot give it to his since he needs a \u05dc\u05db\u05dd Lulov on the second day as well. The only option is to purchase one for his child!<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d4\u05ea\u05e2\u05d5\u05e8\u05e8\u05d5\u05ea \u05ea\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4 16.\u00a0<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Reb Shimon’s grandson.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

BS\u201dD Sukkah 42a (2)\u00a0 Menachem Av 26, 5782. August 23, 2022\u00a0 Many topics were covered at the shiur. Here are some short notes.\u00a0 1- We discussed two methods in regards to a \u201c\u05d7\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5\u05e9\u201d. For example if one comes up with an idea, a \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0.\u00a0 He now realizes that with this \u05e1\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 he can answer a … Continue reading Shiur Sukkah 42a 08\/23\/22<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2944","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2944","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=2944"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2944\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2959,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2944\/revisions\/2959"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=2944"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=2944"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=2944"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}