{"id":4899,"date":"2025-04-03T13:32:54","date_gmt":"2025-04-03T13:32:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=4899"},"modified":"2025-04-09T17:35:50","modified_gmt":"2025-04-09T17:35:50","slug":"4899","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=4899","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Shkolim 19b (2) Nisan 3, 5785 – 4\/1\/25"},"content":{"rendered":"

BSD
\nShkolimz 19b (2)
\nNisan 3, 5785 – 4\/1\/25<\/p>\n

1- At the last shiur we discussed the difference between \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1 and \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2<\/a>.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

\u05d4\u05e8\u05d1\u05d4 \u05e7\u05d5\u05dc\u05de\u05d5\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd \u05d4\u05e9\u05ea\u05d1\u05e8\u05d5 \u05d1\u05e0\u05e1\u05d9\u05d5\u05df \u05dc\u05d4\u05e1\u05d1\u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n

Food found on the street we say \u05db\u05dc \u05d3\u05e4\u05e8\u05d9\u05e9<\/a> and follow the rule of \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1. So if most of the stores are \u05db\u05e9\u05e8, we deem the meat as \u05db\u05e9\u05e8.<\/p>\n

On the other hand, if the doubt began inside or within the source, we apply the \u05d3\u05d9\u05df of \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 and it\u2019s 50-50 and thus not \u05db\u05e9\u05e8.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

An item found apart, is likely from the majority…<\/em><\/p>\n

This week, our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 adds that if the meat is carried by a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9, and this \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 says that he doesn\u2019t remember what store he purchased it from [and technically, being that his doubt began at the source, it should be ruled as \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2, nevertheless] we nevertheless follow the \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1. The reason given is that since for a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9, it is irrelevant if it is \u05db\u05e9\u05e8 or not, the entire concept of \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 does not apply.<\/p>\n

\"Beef<\/p>\n

2- Our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 touches upon the topic of \u05d1\u05e9\u05e8 \u05e9\u05e0\u05ea\u05e2\u05dc\u05dd \u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05e2\u05d9\u05df.<\/a> Although this \u05e1\u05d5\u05d2\u05d9\u05d0 is in \u05d1\u05d1\u05dc\u05d9 as well, our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 is a source concerning meat that is in the possession of a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 as mentioned by the \u05de\u05d2\u05d9\u05d3 \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4.<\/p>\n

\"\"
\n\u05e8\u05de\u05d1”\u05dd \u05de\u05d0\u05db\u05dc\u05d5\u05ea \u05d0\u05e1\u05d5\u05e8\u05d5\u05ea \u05d7, \u05d9\u05d1.
\nThe \u05e8\u05de\u201d\u05d0<\/a> is more lenient.<\/p>\n

3 – We mentioned an interesting \u05e1\u05e4\u05e8 written by one of the last \u05e8\u05d1\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd in Djerba Tunisia.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

\u05d4<\/span>\u05e8\u05d1<\/span><\/a> \u05e8\u05d7\u05de\u05d9\u05dd \u05d7\u05d9 \u05d7\u05b0\u05d5\u05b4\u05d5\u05d9\u05ea\u05b8\u05d4 \u05d4\u05db\u05d4\u05df<\/b> (<\/span>\u05db”\u05d1 \u05d1\u05e1\u05d9\u05d5\u05d5\u05df<\/span><\/a> \u05d4’\u05ea\u05e8\u05e1”\u05d0<\/span><\/a>, <\/span>9 \u05d1\u05d9\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9<\/span><\/a> 1901<\/span><\/a> – <\/span>\u05d9’ \u05d1\u05e9\u05d1\u05d8<\/span><\/a> \u05d4’\u05ea\u05e9\u05d9”\u05d8<\/span><\/a>, <\/span>19 \u05d1\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5\u05d0\u05e8<\/span><\/a> 1959<\/span><\/a>) \u05d4\u05d9\u05d4 <\/span>\u05e8\u05d0\u05e9 \u05d9\u05e9\u05d9\u05d1\u05d4<\/span><\/a> \u05d5<\/span>\u05d3\u05d9\u05d9\u05df<\/span><\/a>. <\/span>\u05d0\u05d1 \u05d1\u05d9\u05ea \u05d3\u05d9\u05df<\/span><\/a> \u05d5\u05e8\u05d1\u05d4 \u05d4\u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d9 \u05e9\u05dc <\/span>\u05d2’\u05e8\u05d1\u05d4<\/span><\/a> \u05d1<\/span>\u05ea\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9\u05e1\u05d9\u05d4<\/span><\/a>[1]<\/span><\/a>[2]<\/span><\/a>, \u05d5\u05de\u05d7\u05e9\u05d5\u05d1\u05d9 \u05e8\u05d1\u05e0\u05d9\u05d4 \u05d1<\/span>\u05de\u05d0\u05d4 \u05d4-20<\/span><\/a>. <\/span>\u05ea\u05dc\u05de\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5 \u05d4\u05de\u05d5\u05d1\u05d4\u05e7<\/span><\/a> \u05d5\u05de\u05de\u05e9\u05d9\u05da \u05d3\u05e8\u05db\u05d5 \u05e9\u05dc \u05d4\u05e8\u05d1 <\/span>\u05db\u05dc\u05e4\u05d5\u05df \u05de\u05e9\u05d4 \u05d4\u05db\u05d4\u05df<\/span><\/a>. \u05dc\u05d0\u05d7\u05e8 \u05e9<\/span>\u05e2\u05dc\u05d4 \u05dc\u05d0\u05e8\u05e5 \u05d9\u05e9\u05e8\u05d0\u05dc<\/span><\/a> \u05db\u05d9\u05d4\u05df \u05db\u05e8\u05d1 \u05d4<\/span>\u05de\u05d5\u05e9\u05d1<\/span><\/a> \u05d1\u05b6\u05e8\u05b6\u05db\u05b0\u05d9\u05b8\u05d4<\/span><\/a> \u05e9\u05d1<\/span>\u05d3\u05e8\u05d5\u05dd<\/span><\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"\u05db\u05e9\u05e8\u05d5\u05d0\u05d9\u05dd<\/p>\n

https:\/\/he.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%97%D7%99_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"\"\"\"<\/p>\n

He was responding to a question of \u05d1\u05e9\u05e8 \u05e9\u05e0\u05ea\u05e2\u05dc\u05dd \u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05e2\u05d9\u05df as a result of a robbery.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

In short, he ruled to allow it. See <\/span>here<\/span><\/a>. <\/span><\/p>\n

4 – Further on the topic of \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1 \u05d5\u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2, we mentioned two more cases where this rule applies.<\/p>\n

A- Story of 4 partners that purchased 33 \u05d0\u05ea\u05e8\u05d5\u05d2\u05d9\u05dd in bulk, one paying for 20, one for 8, one for 3 and for for 2. Each one tied what he purchased together. (In a bag?).<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Now, a thief came along, untied all the knots, stole 10 and left 10.
\nHow do we divide the remaining 10?<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

If we follow \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1, being that the majority of the \u05d0\u05ea\u05e8\u05d5\u05d2\u05d9\u05dd belonged to largest shareholder, then we should perhaps say that all 10 left behind by this thief, belong to the partner that purchased 10!<\/p>\n

Even though the \u05e1\u05e4\u05e7 began at the source, which would make it \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2, but if the thief was a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9, then \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 does not apply.<\/p>\n

The logic is that as above, the idea of of \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 does not apply to a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

5 – We mentioned the \u05e7\u05e6\u05d5\u05ea that suggest an interesting point.
\nThere is a difference says the \u05e7\u05e6\u05d5\u05ea, between the case of the \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 finding a piece of meat and when the \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 steals the \u05d0\u05ea\u05e8\u05d5\u05d2\u05d9\u05dd.<\/p>\n

Whereas when we deal with \u05db\u05e9\u05e8 and \u05e0\u05d1\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4, it makes sense that \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 us not applicable to a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 since he can eat \u05e0\u05d1\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4, when we switch to \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d5\u05ea \u05d2\u05d6\u05d9\u05dc\u05d4, to which a \u05d2\u05d5\u05d9 is also commanded<\/a>, why should the rules of \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 not apply?<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

\"\"
\n\u05e7\u05e6\u05d5\u05ea \u05e8\u05e6\u05d1, \u05d1.<\/p>\n

Note: See here<\/a> regarding applying the din of \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 in monetary matters – \u05d3\u05d9\u05df \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2 \u05d1\u05d3\u05d9\u05e0\u05d9 \u05de\u05de\u05d5\u05e0\u05d5\u05ea.\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n

B – The other example is from \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d5\u05ea \u05e4\u05e1\u05d7. 453, 17<\/a><\/p>\n

Here the point is that for the rule of \u05e7\u05d1\u05df\u05e2 to apply, we must be certain that an \u05d0\u05d9\u05e1\u05d5\u05e8 exists and that it must be identifiable.<\/p>\n

We spoke of the times when the ability to find wheat that was \u05e9\u05de\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4 \u05de\u05e9\u05e2\u05ea \u05e7\u05e6\u05d9\u05e8\u05d4 was no small task. Having no choice, the flour used for Matzos was purchased on the open market. Now if the kernels came into contact with water it would be problematic.<\/p>\n

\"IN<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

BSD Shkolimz 19b (2) Nisan 3, 5785 – 4\/1\/25 1- At the last shiur we discussed the difference between \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1 and \u05e7\u05d1\u05d5\u05e2. \u05d4\u05e8\u05d1\u05d4 \u05e7\u05d5\u05dc\u05de\u05d5\u05e1\u05d9\u05dd \u05d4\u05e9\u05ea\u05d1\u05e8\u05d5 \u05d1\u05e0\u05e1\u05d9\u05d5\u05df \u05dc\u05d4\u05e1\u05d1\u05d9\u05e8\u05d5\u00a0 Food found on the street we say \u05db\u05dc \u05d3\u05e4\u05e8\u05d9\u05e9 and follow the rule of \u05e8\u05d5\u05d1. So if most of the stores are \u05db\u05e9\u05e8, we deem the meat as … Continue reading Shiur Shkolim 19b (2) Nisan 3, 5785 – 4\/1\/25<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4899","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4899","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=4899"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4899\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4933,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4899\/revisions\/4933"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=4899"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=4899"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=4899"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}