{"id":5133,"date":"2025-07-10T16:52:22","date_gmt":"2025-07-10T16:52:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=5133"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:45","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:45","slug":"shiur-brochos-2a-2-tamuz-12-5765-07-09-2025","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=5133","title":{"rendered":"Shiur Brochos 2a (2) – Tamuz 12, 5785. 07\/09\/2025"},"content":{"rendered":"

BSD<\/span><\/p>\n

Brochos 2a (2)<\/span><\/p>\n

Tamuz 12, 5785. 07\/09\/2025<\/span><\/p>\n

Short notes.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The entire Shiur was learning the first Tosfos in \u05e9\u201d\u05e1. – see below\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Some parameters we prefaced to understand the \u05ea\u05d5\u05e1\u05e4\u05d5\u05ea.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

1- Some \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05d5\u05ea have a specific directive as to when to perform them, either during the \u2018day\u2019 or during the \u2018night\u2019.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Such as \u05de\u05e6\u05d4 where it says <\/span>\u05d1\u05e2\u05e8\u05d1 <\/b>\u05ea\u05d0\u05db\u05dc\u05d5 \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05ea.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"8.<\/p>\n

\u05dc\u05d5\u05dc\u05d1- where it says \u05d5\u05dc\u05e7\u05d7\u05ea\u05dd \u05dc\u05db\u05dd <\/span>\u05d1\u05d9\u05d5\u05dd <\/b>\u05d4\u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d5\u05df.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

2- \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 is unique as it says \u05d1\u05e9\u05db\u05d1\u05da \u05d5\u05d1\u05e7\u05d5\u05de\u05da with no specific mention of day or night.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Sukkot<\/p>\n

Now as we will see further in our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0, the words \u05d1\u05e9\u05db\u05d1\u05da \u05d5\u05d1\u05e7\u05d5\u05de\u05da can be translated in two ways.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A- When <\/span>going <\/span><\/i>to sleep and when <\/span>getting <\/span><\/i>up. [Limited time in the evening and also in the morning]\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"How<\/p>\n

B- When sleeping and when being awake. Meaning the time when people are sleeping (all night) and when people are up (all day)\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

[We briefly mentioned the \u05db\u05e1\u05e3 \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4 and \u05e9\u05d0\u05d2\u05ea \u05d0\u05e8\u05d9\u05d4 – stay tuned – to be discussed in the future]<\/span><\/p>\n

3 – The \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4 states that \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 of \u05e2\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05ea is after \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd and not before.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\u05e6\u05d0\u05ea<\/p>\n

4 – The great paradox: Despite the explicit ruling of the first \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4 in \u05e9\u201d\u05e1, the fact is that for ages, many people Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 way before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd. How is the practice tolerated?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

5 – Rashi himself was bothered by this practice:\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

\u2018And [being that] prior to \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd is not a time when people go to sleep, therefore, someone who says \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 prior to this time is not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0.\u00a0<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

If so, why do we say \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 in Shul [when we daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 early]? In order so that \u05e9\u05de\u05d5\u05e0\u05d4 \u05e2\u05e9\u05e8\u05d4 is preceded by words of \u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4. [The \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 is just an introduction to \u05e9\u05de\u05d5\u05e0\u05d4 \u05e2\u05e9\u05e8\u05d4].<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

And therefore, we are obligated to say \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 [again] after it gets dark. And [only] by saying \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 before going to bed we fulfill our obligation [of saying \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 \u05e9\u05dc \u05e2\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05ea<\/span><\/i>]\u2019.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

In other words, according to Rashi,\u00a0 \u05e9\u05de\u05e2\u00a0 <\/span>must <\/i><\/b>be said after<\/em> \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd. However, as to \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1, as other \u05e8\u05d0\u05e9\u05d5\u05e0\u05d9\u05dd explain \u05e8\u05e9\u201d\u05d9, being that \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 is a \u05d3\u05e8\u05d1\u05e0\u05df, the \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd allowed it since it would be difficult to gather a \u05de\u05e0\u05d9\u05df at a late hour. But not \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2, which is \u05de\u05df \u05d4\u05ea\u05d5\u05e8\u05d4.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

As to saying the \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea of \u05e9\u05de\u05e2, how can we say them before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd? Are they not part of \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The answer is the famous \u05e8\u05e9\u05d1\u201d\u05d0, quoted by the Alter Rebbe in Tanya chapter 49,<\/a> that these \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea have in a sense nothing to do with \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

\u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b8\u05d6\u05b6\u05d4 \u05d9\u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b7\u05df \u05d8\u05d5\u05bc\u05d1 \u05d8\u05b7\u05e2\u05b7\u05dd \u05d5\u05b8\u05d3\u05b7\u05e2\u05b7\u05ea \u05dc\u05b0\u05ea\u05b7\u05e7\u05bc\u05b8\u05e0\u05b7\u05ea \u05d7\u05b2\u05db\u05b8\u05de\u05b4\u05d9\u05dd, \u05e9\u05c1\u05b6\u05ea\u05bc\u05b4\u05e7\u05bc\u05b0\u05e0\u05d5\u05bc \u05d1\u05bc\u05b4\u05e8\u05b0\u05db\u05d5\u05b9\u05ea \u05e7\u05b0\u05e8\u05b4\u05d9\u05d0\u05b7\u05ea \u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05de\u05b7\u05e2 “\u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05ea\u05bc\u05b7\u05d9\u05b4\u05dd \u05dc\u05b0\u05e4\u05b8\u05e0\u05b6\u05d9\u05d4\u05b8 \u05db\u05d5\u05bc'”,<\/p>\n

This will enable one to understand the eminently reasonable explanation of the Rabbinic enactment\u00a0 <\/a>ordaining the recitation of the blessings of the Shema<\/span>: two\u00a0blessings<\/span> preceding it and so on,<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

\u05d3\u05bc\u05b0\u05dc\u05b4\u05db\u05b0\u05d0\u05d5\u05b9\u05e8\u05b8\u05d4, \u05d0\u05b5\u05d9\u05df \u05dc\u05b8\u05d4\u05b6\u05dd \u05e9\u05c1\u05b7\u05d9\u05bc\u05b8\u05d9\u05db\u05d5\u05bc\u05ea \u05db\u05bc\u05b0\u05dc\u05b8\u05dc \u05e2\u05b4\u05dd \u05e7\u05b0\u05e8\u05b4\u05d9\u05d0\u05b7\u05ea \u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05de\u05b7\u05e2, \u05db\u05bc\u05b0\u05de\u05d5\u05b9 \u05e9\u05c1\u05b6\u05db\u05bc\u05b8\u05ea\u05b0\u05d1\u05d5\u05bc \u05d4\u05b8\u05e8\u05b7\u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05d1\u05bc\u05b8”\u05d0 \u05d5\u05bc\u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05d0\u05b8\u05e8 \u05e4\u05bc\u05d5\u05b9\u05e1\u05b0\u05e7\u05b4\u05d9\u05dd,<\/p>\n

for at first glance, it would appear that they have no connection whatsoever with the recital of the\u00a0Shema<\/a>, as the Rashba and other halachic authorities have stated.\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

See there for explanation \u05e2\u05dc \u05e4\u05d9 \u05d7\u05e1\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5\u05ea as to why they are called \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

6 – Now to the actual Tosfos.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Rashi\u2019s grandchildren and great grandchildren argued with him and posed many strong question on their grandfather\u2019s \u05e9\u05d9\u05d8\u05d4.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

One is: if \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 \u05e9\u05e2\u05dc \u05d4\u05de\u05d9\u05d8\u05d4 is the way one is \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0, then why do many people only say the first part of \u05e9\u05de\u05e2?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Another: Why don\u2019t we say \u05d1\u05e8\u05db\u05d5\u05ea \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 at bedtime? [See \u05e8\u05e9\u05d1\u201d\u05d0 above].\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And isn\u2019t \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 \u05e9\u05e2\u05dc \u05d4\u05de\u05d9\u05d8\u05d4 said only for protection against \u05de\u05d6\u05d9\u05e7\u05d9\u05dd?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Thus Rashi\u2019s\u00a0 descendants <\/span>said the the \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 people say in Shul [before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea]\u00a0 is <\/span>the<\/em> <\/b>\u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 that we\u2019re obligated to do every evening. They <\/span>are <\/b>\u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 this \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05d5\u05d4 even before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But how can we do it before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd? Is it not contrary to what is explicitly sated in the first \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So we have many approaches to resolve this issue. Here are 2.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

7 – Rabbeinu Tam.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The\u00a0 ruling of Mishna is not the definitive \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d4. How\u2019s that?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

We encounter later in our \u05de\u05e1\u05db\u05ea\u05d0 an argument between the \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd and \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 as to the final time one can daven \u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 and start to Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d1.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd say that \u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 can be said until \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea [actually until the \u05e9\u05e7\u05d9\u05e2\u05d4] followed by \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Conversely, \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 says that the end of the time for \u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 is at \u05e4\u05dc\u05d2 \u05d4\u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 and immediately after \u05e4\u05dc\u05d2 \u05d4\u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 one can Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

In a day that the hours of day and night are 12 each, \u05e4\u05dc\u05d2 \u05d4\u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 is at 4:45 PM. \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea is at 6:00 PM.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

So according to \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4, \u2018night\u2019 begins at 4:45 PM, and saying \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 after \u05e4\u05dc\u05d2 \u05d4\u05de\u05e0\u05d7\u05d4 is perfectly OK since it is nighttime.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, interestingly, in regards to this particular \u05de\u05d7\u05dc\u05d5\u05e7\u05ea , the \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0 says that one can choose to follow either the \u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd or \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4, as long as one is consistent.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So those that Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 early, accept the opinion of \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4 who disagrees with our \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4 as to the start of \u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 \u05e9\u05dc \u05e2\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05ea. Therefore, the \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 one says during \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 prior to \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea is <\/span>the <\/span>\u05e9\u05de\u05e2 one is \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 with.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Tosfos continues by asking a strong question on \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05e0\u05d5 \u05ea\u05dd.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

In actuality, those that Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1, say at 5:30 PM [30 minutes before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd] rely on \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4\u2019s opinion that night has begun at 4:45. So far so good.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Can<\/p>\n

But these people also Daven Mincha at 5:15 PM! That\u2019s contradictory, since by choosing to follow \u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4, they cannot Daven Mincha after 4:45!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

8 – The opinion of the R\u201dI. [Rashi\u2019s great grandson].\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

True, as above, night begins either at 6 PM [\u05d7\u05db\u05de\u05d9\u05dd] or at 4:45 PM [\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9 \u05d9\u05d4\u05d5\u05d3\u05d4]. However, regardless,\u00a0 \u05d6\u05de\u05df \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 \u05e9\u05dc \u05e2\u05e8\u05d1\u05d9\u05ea actually begins <\/span>before <\/span><\/i>nightfall! And that indeed is the opinion of some \u05ea\u05e0\u05d0\u05d9\u05dd, who disagree with our \u05de\u05e9\u05e0\u05d4,\u00a0 as we will see further in our \u05d2\u05de\u05e8\u05d0.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

They also bring proof from the story of Rav, who would start Shabbos before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea\u00a0 and likely also said \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 before \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

There is much more on this topic and as mentioned last week the \u05d4\u05dc\u05db\u05d4 is like \u05e8\u05e9\u201d\u05d9.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

If one wants to Daven \u05de\u05e2\u05e8\u05d9\u05d1 with a \u05de\u05e0\u05d9\u05df prior to \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea, that\u2019s fine as long as he remembers that he is not \u05d9\u05d5\u05e6\u05d0 the \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05d4 of \u05e7\u05e8\u05d9\u05d0\u05ea \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 and will need to say it after \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Appropriate to repeat here from the previous Shiur<\/a> the opinion of the \u05d2\u05e8\u201d\u05d0 that one should better Daven \u05d1\u05d9\u05d7\u05d9\u05d3\u05d5\u05ea after<\/em> \u05e6\u05d0\u05ea \u05d4\u05db\u05d5\u05db\u05d1\u05d9\u05dd, so as to say \u05e9\u05de\u05e2 in its proper time.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

BSD Brochos 2a (2) Tamuz 12, 5785. 07\/09\/2025 Short notes.\u00a0 The entire Shiur was learning the first Tosfos in \u05e9\u201d\u05e1. – see below\u00a0 Some parameters we prefaced to understand the \u05ea\u05d5\u05e1\u05e4\u05d5\u05ea.\u00a0 1- Some \u05de\u05e6\u05d5\u05d5\u05ea have a specific directive as to when to perform them, either during the \u2018day\u2019 or during the \u2018night\u2019.\u00a0 Such as \u05de\u05e6\u05d4 … Continue reading Shiur Brochos 2a (2) – Tamuz 12, 5785. 07\/09\/2025<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5133","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5133","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=5133"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5133\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5367,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5133\/revisions\/5367"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=5133"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=5133"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=5133"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}