{"id":884,"date":"2017-07-13T21:58:43","date_gmt":"2017-07-13T21:58:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=884"},"modified":"2026-10-26T18:04:52","modified_gmt":"2026-10-26T18:04:52","slug":"shiur-071117-beitza-23a","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/?p=884","title":{"rendered":"Shiur 07\/11\/17 – Beitza 23a"},"content":{"rendered":"

Beita 23a <\/span><\/p>\n

1- We continued to learn about using incense (and perfumes) on Shabbos and Yom Tov.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

Rabbah and R\u2019 Yosef jointly rule that it is prohibited on Yom Tov to put a cup onto a garment to impart the smell of the cup into the garment. <\/span><\/p>\n

Rava rules that it is permitted to place incense on coals in order to smoke fruits just as it is permitted to place meat on coals. <\/span><\/p>\n

2- Lehalacha – There is an argument if Kohanim are permitted to insert their hand into a bowl of water which has been perfumed. Even if the perfume was placed into the water before Shabbos and Yom Tov.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

The <\/span>Mogen Avrohom (11) , Taz (8)<\/span><\/a> as well as the <\/span>Alter Rebbe (511, 7)<\/span><\/a> all prohibit it. <\/span><\/p>\n

The Chacham Tzvi and Mishna Brura permit it. <\/span><\/p>\n

We discussed if there is any difference between the above and applying or spraying perfume on Shabbos and Yom Tov. <\/span><\/p>\n

It seems that according to the Alter Rebbe, the only way to permit it is if the perfume was already on <\/span>before <\/span><\/i>Shabbos and yom Tov then one would be allowed to add some more. See Alter Rebbe above (top of the page). <\/span><\/p>\n

3- We moved on to the Baraisa that records the Rabbis opposition to <\/span>Todos of Rome<\/a><\/b>\u2019s Minhag \u00a0to eat roasted goat with its intestines on the first night of Pesach. The Chachamim disagreed with this custom least someone actually sanctify a lamb and run into problems of Kodshim.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

[in passing we spoke about this \u201cRome<\/a>\u201d. Is that in Italy or a city in Israel called Rome?] <\/span><\/p>\n

4- We discussed the Gemara in Pesachim 53b.:<\/span><\/p>\n

Todos of Rome<\/b> instituted a custom among the Jews of Rome to eat roasted goats on the night of Pesach.<\/span><\/p>\n

They sent to him: Were you not Todos, we would decree ostracism upon you, as you are feeding Israel sacred meat<\/em>\u00a0– \u05e7\u05d3\u05e9\u05d9\u05dd- outside the Temple.<\/span><\/p>\n

Actual sacred meat?! Rather, say \u201cclose<\/em> to feeding Israel sacred meat outside the Temple.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

They asked:<\/span><\/p>\n

Todos of Rome<\/b> \u2013 why did they not place him in Cherem? Was is because he was a great scholar, or was he a powerful man \u00a0– \u05d2\u05d1\u05e8\u05d0 \u05e8\u05d1\u05d0?<\/span><\/p>\n

The following text is evidence that he was a respected scholar:<\/span><\/p>\n

And this was expounded by Todos of Rome:<\/span><\/p>\n

What did Chananiah Misha\u2019el and Azaryah see, that they jumped into the fiery furnace Al kidush Hashem?<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

They applied an argument (kal vo\u2019chomer<\/a>) \u00a0from the frogs to themselves \u2013<\/span><\/p>\n

If frogs, who are not commanded regarding sanctification of the Name, <\/span><\/p>\n

[ as it says \u201cand they (the frogs) will come and go up into your houses . . . and into your ovens and into your doughs of bread\u201d] \u2013 <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

We, who <\/span>are <\/span><\/i>commanded regarding sanctification of the Name, how much more so!<\/span><\/p>\n

This kal vo\u2019chomer persuaded Chananiah Misha\u2019el and Azaryah to jump into the fire. <\/span><\/p>\n

(As to why it was not a standard Mitzva of Kiddush Hashem? see Tosfos there). <\/span><\/p>\n

We mentioned the oft-quoted vort – What is the meaning that the frogs were not commanded to die Al Kiddush Hashem? \u00a0They were indeed! As it says –\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u05d5\u05b0\u05e9\u05c1\u05b8\u05e8\u05b7\u05a3\u05e5 \u05d4\u05b7\u05d9\u05b0\u05d0\u05b9\u05e8\u0598 \u05e6\u05b0\u05e4\u05b7\u05e8\u05b0\u05d3\u05bc\u05b0\u05e2\u05b4\u05d9\u05dd\u0592 \u05d5\u05b0\u05e2\u05b8\u05dc\u05d5\u05bc\u0599 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b8\u05a3\u05d0\u05d5\u05bc \u05d1\u05bc\u05b0\u05d1\u05b5\u05d9\u05ea\u05b6\u0594\u05da\u05b8 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b7\u05bd\u05d7\u05b2\u05d3\u05b7\u05a5\u05e8 \u05de\u05b4\u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05db\u05bc\u05b8\u05bd\u05d1\u05b0\u05da\u05b8\u0596 \u05d5\u05b0\u05e2\u05b7\u05dc-\u05de\u05b4\u05d8\u05bc\u05b8\u05ea\u05b6\u0591\u05da\u05b8 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b0\u05d1\u05b5\u05a4\u05d9\u05ea \u05e2\u05b2\u05d1\u05b8\u05d3\u05b6\u05a8\u05d9\u05da\u05b8\u0599 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b0\u05e2\u05b7\u05de\u05bc\u05b6\u0594\u05da\u05b8 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b0\u05ea\u05b7\u05e0\u05bc\u05d5\u05bc\u05e8\u05b6\u0596\u05d9\u05da\u05b8 \u05d5\u05bc\u05d1\u05b0\u05de\u05b4\u05e9\u05c1\u05b0\u05d0\u05b2\u05e8\u05d5\u05b9\u05ea\u05b6\u05bd\u05d9\u05da\u05b8:<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0\u2018they will enter your home, bedrooms, beds, \u2026..and <\/span>ovens<\/i><\/b>.\u2019 <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image<\/p>\n

The answer is that the frogs <\/span>as a whole<\/span><\/i> were commanded to invade Egypt and even to enter the fire burning ovens and die. But now, every <\/span>individual <\/span><\/i>frog had a way out of perishing by saying that \u2018let another frog go into the oven\u2019. I will just roam around Egypt\u2026\u2026.<\/span><\/p>\n

And <\/span>that <\/i><\/b>is what Chananiah Misha\u2019el and Azaryah learned from the frogs! <\/span><\/p>\n

5- Next Mishna and Gemara:<\/span><\/p>\n

The Gemara questions the language of the Mishnah that indicates that R\u2019 Elazar ben Azariah<\/a> owned only one cow –<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Image\u00a0 when in fact he owned many. <\/span><\/p>\n

As a matter of fact his yearly \u2018Ma\u2019ser Be\u2019haima\u2019 was 13,000 cows meaning he owned 130,000 heads of cattle! <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Related<\/p>\n

We leaned the Tosfos that question the timing of this \u00a0\u2018Ma\u2019ser Be\u2019haima\u2019 by \u00a0R\u2019 Elazar ben Azariah since he lived (as an adult) after the destruction of the Beis Hamikdosh. <\/span><\/p>\n

6- A Baraisa teaches that the Mishnah [where Reb Eliezer did not protest his neighbors animal going out to the street while carrying] refers to his neighbor\u2019s cow, but since he did not protest, her practice it is attributed to him. <\/span><\/p>\n

We spoke about if the prohibition of one’s animals to perform work<\/a> on Shabbos applies to Tom Tov as well. <\/span><\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

See here from the <\/span>Alter Rebbe<\/span><\/a>. \u00a0And <\/span>here<\/span><\/a>. <\/span><\/p>\n

We discussed the <\/span>Reb Akiva Eiger\u2019s query<\/span><\/a> if <\/span>women <\/i><\/b>are obligated to keep their animals from doing a melacha \u00a0on Shabbos and Yom Tov. <\/span><\/p>\n

It would seem from our Gemara that they are indeed prohibited from the fact the Reb Elazar regretted not rebuking his neighbor\u2019s wife! <\/span><\/p>\n

See Yochin uBoaz (2) \u00a0there. <\/span><\/p>\n

Genug. <\/span><\/p>\n

Soufi.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Beita 23a 1- We continued to learn about using incense (and perfumes) on Shabbos and Yom Tov. Rabbah and R\u2019 Yosef jointly rule that it is prohibited on Yom Tov to put a cup onto a garment to impart the smell of the cup into the garment. Rava rules that it is permitted to place … Continue reading Shiur 07\/11\/17 – Beitza 23a<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-884","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/884","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/5"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=884"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/884\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":886,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/884\/revisions\/886"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=884"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=884"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shiurpoints.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=884"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}