Sukah 2b 12/17/19

Kislev 19, 5780. December 17, 2019

Suka 2b

1- We created a chart to understand the 3 reasons and the three scenarios concerning  the opinion of the Chachomim that a Sukkah that is 20 Amos plus is Posul. 


Image result for dollhouse sukkah

2- Tosfos seems to imply that there is a fourth reason. That of Rav Chanan. A small Sukkah measuring only 7 by 7 Tefachim when it is over 20 Amos high is more like a chicken coop than a house. Even a temporary house. 

Image result for tiny chicken coop

3- We mentioned the two opinions as to why (according to Rav Yoshia) when the wall(s) of a 20 Amos + Suka reach the Schach it is Kosher. Rashi says that one’s eyes roll up to the Schach and thus is aware of it. The Ritvah says that it is because of the ‘cozyness’ one feels in an enclosed Suka.  

The difference between these two reasoning is when only one wall reaches the Schach.

According to Rashi it would seem that it is sufficient. According to the Ritva one full wall does not create a closed environment. 

4- Yosi Greenberg sent this PDF in regard to the question we posted last week of how it it possible that the Schach would not create a shade in a tall Suka at 12 PM. 


5- The story of Hilna haMalka (Queen Helena) and her tall Sukkah she shared with her children. The Sukkah was more than 20 Amos high, which would be Posul according to the Chachamim in our Mishnah. 

There are many big topics here and we just touched on one of them. We will BL”N discuss other topics in the next shiur. 

~ Hilni was being מחנך her children that were under Bar Mitzvah. 

We mentioned an original חידוש from the Rebbe on the topic of חינוך בקטן. 

How does the Torah expect a young boy to begin to observe Mitzvos properly if מן התורה neither the father nor the son have a chiyuv to train prior to his Bar Mitzvah?   

Image result for chinuch mitzvos

The Rebbe discusses the various opinions.

Of course there is the chiyuv מן התורה for a father to teach Torah to his son, but the training of a קטן in the practice of Mitzvos, that is only  חינוך מדרבנן. 

Image result for teach son torah

To teach a child to be in the position upon his Bar Mitzvah to be observe Mitzvos properly is not Biblical. The training is something that was instituted by the רבנן. 

So how does the Torah expect a 13 year old to be proficient enough to be fully observant? Surely he will transgress due to his lack of knowledge and training. 

Image result for 12 year old, tefillin

One can perhaps say that it’s on the father to train him as part of the chiyuv to teach him Torah. 

Or perhaps that’s it’s logical for him to train his son to be able to observe Mitzvos properly. 

That would make it דאורייתא. [in  footnote (26) he brings the famous  פני יהושע that things that are logical are מן התורה, even if it is not written in the Torah! see here

All the above is problematic as it would imply that Chinuch in Mitzvos [in addition to the teaching him Torah] is also מן התורה. We do not find any opinion that Chinuch is De’Oraiso. 

So again, how does the Torah expect a 13 year old to be proficient enough to be fully observant? There is no way one can learn everything on the first day! 

Image result for study piles of books

The Rebbe tries another approach. He quotes the various opinions about the chiyuv of a person to place himself in a position (prior to the זמן קיום המצוה ) that when the time of a Mitzvah arrives he is able to be מקיים the Mitzvah. [such as ensuring that when Pesach arrives one has Matzah]

The צל”ח ,ומנחת חינוך and more. See footnote 32.  

So perhaps the same would apply to a קטן while he is still under the age of Mitzvos. A child is obligated to ‘be in the position to observe all Mitzvos’. Meaning that he needs to learn and practice before his Bar Mitzvah. 

But that would imply that the chiyuv is on the minor, [such as הכשר מצוה] before his Bar Mitzvah. But that is also problematic   since הכשר מצוה cannot apply on a non בר חיובא, such as the קטן.

The Rebbe concludes that (despite him not finding any precedent for this idea) one must say that indeed there is no chiyuv מן התורה prior to his בר מצוה to train himself!

The קטן, only upon reaching Bar Mitzvah is obligated to learn and train himself to be able to observe Mitzvos properly. And if that causes any transgression, the Torah accepts it as part of the learning process.  

ואף כי זהו חידוש גדול בהלכה, מ”מ נראה דמסברא מוכרח הוא, דאיך יחול איזה חיוב באופן שמעצם טבעו א”א לקיימו, ומכיון שהאפשריות של קיום ה­מצוה כדבעי אינה אלא ע”י הקדמה של לימוד וחינוך הדורש זמן מסויים, לכן צ”ל דכל זה נכלל בעצם החיוב. ולכן אין סברא שהתורה תחייב לחנכו בעודו בקט­נותו כדי שיוכל לקיים כל המצוות כשיג­דיל, ואדרבה, התחלת חלות החיוב אינה אלא ברגע שנתגדל, ואם צריך זמן 

של חינוך והכשרה, הרי זה כלול בעצם חלות החיוב שחלים אחרי שנתגדל.  

The Rebbe compares this to the Giyur process where we do not find any obligation for a Ger prior to his conversion to be בקי בכל המצוות. 

Here is a link to the entire piece. 

6- We tied what the Pnei Yohoshua says to Yud Tes Kislev. The Sicha of Tof Shin Beis. Page 52. 

At the first celebration of Yud Tes Kislev (which occurred three years after the year of the imprisonment and release) the Alter Rebbe said in the name of the Ba’al Shem Tov: “To be a fool, sadness and the feeling of self importance are by Chassidim an Issur m’De’Oraisa! 

A very early portrait of the Admor Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi (the Alter Rebbe), author of the Tanya - lithograph - Berlin, circa 1900.

Conversely, being smart, being happy by emphasizing the joy found everything and acting tactfully are by Chassidim a Mitzvah De’Oraisa! 


Image result for 614

Now,  obvious question: We only have 613 Mitzvos. Is this a new mitzvah? Or, to which one of the 613 Mitzvos is this directive associated with? 

With what the Pnei Yohoshua writes it is quite easily understood:

Such obvious and logical ideas (such as not to be a fool and to be smart and happy) need not be written in the Torah to be דאורייתא! 


Sukkah 2a-2b 12/10/19

Sukkah 2a (2)

12 Kislev 5780. December 10, 2019

1- We explored the reason as to why a Sukkah cannot be higher than 20 Amos. 

A- Rabah: Learns from the posuk

למען ידעו דרתיכם כי בסכות הושבתי את בני ישראל

The mitzvah of Sukkah is unique in the sense that not only does one need  awareness that he is doing a מצות עשה, one also needs awareness, feeling and understanding of the meaning of the Mitzvah. Thus, one needs to be aware that he is sitting in a Sukkah. Therefore if the Sukkah is over 20 Amos this cognizance is lacking. 

Image result for tall building with sukkah

See here the Alter Rebbe’s preface to Hilchos Suka. This topic is something the Rebbe emphasized many times. 

B- Rav Zeira – Learns from this Posuk in ישעיהו

 וסכה תהיה לצל יומם מחרב

The definition of a Sukkah is Schach, And Schach, as per the Pasuk above is one that provides צל or shadow. A Sukkah that is taller than 20 Amos the shade will be from the walls rather from the Schach. 

We had a tough time understanding this as it would seem to us that at 12 PM the sun would cast a shadow because of the Schach and not the walls.

One suggestion is that in countries away from the Equator the sun is not directly overhead. Another explanation is that even if the sun at midday is directly overhead most of the day it is not.  

C – Rava – The Pasuk בסכת תשבו שבעת ימים seems to say that the Suka needs to be a temporary structure. A seven day structure.  But surely it cannot mean that a Suka should be a structure that will last only 7 days, for how would one be able to build a Suka that will crumble exactly on the 8th day.  So what is the Pasuk telling us? 

Image result for 7 day warranty

Says Rava, it’s advising us that the structure needs to be one that is constructed in such a way that it can be built as something temporary or permanent. 

Now for a 20-Amos Sukkah one would need to build foundations for it to last. Meaning that such a structure can only be something permanent. That is what Torah does not want. 

[YG asked why a Sukkah made of huge stone blocks (not on a foundation) is Kosher. ] 

Image result for stone sukkah

2– We discussed the Tosfos and the different opinions if rain needs to be able to penetrate the Schach. More on this in upcoming Shiurim BL”N. 

3-  We discussed the various reasons given for the Torah choosing the 15th day of Tishrei for the beginning of Yom Tov Suka. Mentioned were the explanation given by the Ramban, Rashbam and the Ran. 

Image result for 15

We mentioned the reason offered by Ibn Suib. In short, from Nisan to Yom Kippur they were busy with the preparation for and then Matan Torah itself. Then they were occupied with Teshuva for the golden calf incident. 

The day following Yom Kippur,  when all was forgiven, Moshe Rabeinu tells them to build the Mishkan. That was the 11th of Tishrei. 

That Charidy campaign took two days as it says “we are live“. That took place on the 12th and 13th day of Tishrei. (2 times ‘boker’)

וַיִּקְחוּ מִלִּפְנֵי מֹשֶׁה אֵת כָּל-הַתְּרוּמָה אֲשֶׁר הֵבִיאוּ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לִמְלֶאכֶת עֲבֹדַת הַקֹּדֶשׁ לַעֲשֹׂת אֹתָהּ וְהֵם הֵבִיאוּ אֵלָיו עוֹד נְדָבָה בַּבֹּקֶר בַּבֹּקֶר.


So the first available day to tell Klal Yisroel about Sukkah was on the 14th. So the Sukkos were indeed built on the 14th and Yom Tov began the night of the 15th! 

Sukkah 2a – 12/4/19

Suka 2a

5 Kislev , Dec. 4th 2019

Welcome all to Meseches Sukkah,

Image result for ‫סוכה גמרא'‬‎

Our Gemara deals with these Pesukim in Parshas Emor-  ויקרא פרק כג פסוק לט:

לט    אַ֡ךְ בַּֽחֲמִשָּׁה֩ עָשָׂ֨ר י֜וֹם לַחֹ֣דֶשׁ הַשְּׁבִיעִ֗י בְּאָסְפְּכֶם֙ אֶת־תְּבוּאַ֣ת הָאָ֔רֶץ תָּחֹ֥גּוּ אֶת־חַג־יְהֹוָ֖ה שִׁבְעַ֣ת יָמִ֑ים בַּיּ֤וֹם הָֽרִאשׁוֹן֙ שַׁבָּת֔וֹן וּבַיּ֥וֹם הַשְּׁמִינִ֖י שַׁבָּתֽוֹן:

מ    וּלְקַחְתֶּ֨ם לָכֶ֜ם בַּיּ֣וֹם הָֽרִאשׁ֗וֹן פְּרִ֨י עֵ֤ץ הָדָר֙ כַּפֹּ֣ת תְּמָרִ֔ים וַֽעֲנַ֥ף עֵֽץ־עָבֹ֖ת וְעַרְבֵי־נָ֑חַל וּשְׂמַחְתֶּ֗ם לִפְנֵ֛י יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶ֖ם שִׁבְעַ֥ת יָמִֽים:

מב   בַּסֻּכֹּ֥ת תֵּֽשְׁב֖וּ שִׁבְעַ֣ת יָמִ֑ים כָּל־הָֽאֶזְרָח֙ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל יֵֽשְׁב֖וּ בַּסֻּכֹּֽת:

מג   לְמַ֘עַן֘ יֵֽדְע֣וּ דֹרֹֽתֵיכֶם֒ כִּ֣י בַסֻּכּ֗וֹת הוֹשַׁ֨בְתִּי֙ אֶת־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל בְּהֽוֹצִיאִ֥י אוֹתָ֖ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲנִ֖י יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶֽם:

In Parshas Re’e:

דברים פרק טז פסוק יג

יג חַ֧ג הַסֻּכֹּ֛ת תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה לְךָ֖ שִׁבְעַ֣ת יָמִ֑ים בְּאָ֨סְפְּךָ֔ מִגָּרְנְךָ֖ וּמִיִּקְבֶֽךָ:

1- Spoke as to why the Mesechta begins with the Halachos of Sukkah rather than the Halachos of the Daled Minim which are mentioned in the P’sukim first. 

Image result for sukkah daled minim

Some explanations:

A- Sukkah begins at night as opposed to the Daled Minim. 

B- Although Sukkah is mentioned last, in Parshas Re’e it says חַ֧ג הַסֻּכֹּ֛ת תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה לְךָ֖. This seems to indicate that building a Suka is a Chiyuv. And that would be before Sukkos even starts. (See Aruch Laner).

We will learn further ahead about the SheHechiyunu on the putting up a Suka. 

2- We mentioned the Machlokes between the Bavli and Yerushalmi. Whereas in Bavli we do not find that building a Sukkah is a mitzvah in Yerushalmi it states that one even makes a Brachah when building a Sukkah! 

More on this topic as we move along. 

3- We mentioned the Vort of the Izbitzer. See here

In his Sefer Beis Yakov he explains the perplexing fact that in regard to the Lechem Haponim a reason and explanation for this Mitzvah eluded both the Rambam and the AriZal. 

Related image

The Rambam is in Moreh Nevuchim and the AriZal in his famous composition we sing every Shabbos at the day meal:

Y’galei lan ta-amei,

d’visreisar nahamei

d’inun as bish’meih

k’fila uklisha.

יגלה לן טעמי. דבתריסר נהמי. דאינון את בשמיה. כפילא וקלישא

May He disclose to us the reason for the twelve breads which symbolize a letter of His name both in the combined and the single form.

4-  We spoke about the wording in the Gemara concerning Schach that is above 20 Amos that is Posul due to its height. The Gemara seems to be saying that one may add another level of Schach below the one that’s Posul. (and then remove the top layer). 

Image result for very tall sukkah

Some infer from this that one may build a Sukkah with Schach inside a house and then remove the roof. Or to build a Suka under an awning and only retract it after the Schach is placed. 

That is actually the Halachah. See here. Ramo 626.2. 

5 –  We suggested a ‘siman’ to remember the number 56, which is total amount of Dafin in Meseches Suka. 


When going around the Bima saying Hoshai’nos it’s inevitable to shout “NU”!

NU equals 56……