Shiur 07/24/18 – Beitza 36a(2)


Beitza 36a (2)

1- We continued the Sugya of  אין כלי ניטל אלא לדבר הניטל. Meaning whether something that is not muktzeh and thus permitted to be moved around; can it be moved for the purpose of something that is muktzeh?

2- The opinion of Reb Yitzchok is that it is prohibited. The opinion of Ulla is that it is permitted, and such is the Halachah.

3- Another topic discussed is אין מבטלין כלי מהיכנו. Meaning that something that is permitted at the onset of Shabbos and Yom Tov to be moved around, such as a pot, one may not place something of Muktzeh into this pot. Doing so would make the pot Muktzeh and thus making the pot unusable.

4- We read the text of the Mishna Brura (B’H, אסור) where he poses an interesting question:

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When we wash Negel Vasser in the morning, or מים אחרונים, into a shisel etc, we are basically making the shissel useless since the used water becomes non usable!

We retold the story of the Graf Potozki and the resulting ‘change’ in regard to רוח הטומאה.

La tragedia del Conde – La tragedia del Graf Valentin Potoski

5- If a leak develops on Shabbos and one wants to collect the water by placing a pot under the flow, if the water is murky and not useable (Muktzeh), then placing the pot has two problems.

1-  אין כלי ניטל אלא לדבר הניטל. Moving a pot for water that is Muktzeh

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2- אין מבטלין כלי מהיכנו. When water will collect in the pot it will render the pot Muktzeh.

6- See here on a topic mentioned in our Gemara.

7- We continued last’s weeks story of the young man who went to the market on Shabbos to collect his debt and the reaction of the Kehila.

The Yavet’z ruled that the only thing the Kehila has on the young man is that he should have asked a Rov prior to going.

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As to the concern raised by the Kehila that the non-Jews would use the action of this fellow against the Jews, saying that ‘you really don’t observe your Sabbath’, The Yavet’z brings an interesting Gemore.

The famous convert Isser, once said “prior to my conversion I was of the opinion that Jews are not שומרי שבת! Why? Because when I walk in the Jewish neighborhoods on Shabbos I never see money on the streets. Now it’s inevitable that before Shabbos people dropped some change. So why don’t I see any change on the street?

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It must be that Jews, when they see money, they pick it up even on Shabbos!

The Gemara concludes that there is a היתר (unknown to Iser at the time) to carry less than ד’ אמות at a time.

So says the Yavet’z, despite hearing what Isser said about his opinion of the Jews, the Chachamim didn’t enact to disallow this היתר  of carrying less than ד’ אמות at a time.

8- He finishes off with a story about Jewish merchants in Amsterdam who heard rumors on Shabbos that a boat carrying merchandise they ordered from overseas may have sunk. Despite the rumors they were able to insure the cargo by verbally binding a policy on Shabbos!

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They didn’t, and the Yavet’z praised them (despite others called them fools) since binding a policy is considered מקח וממכר.


Shiur 07/17/2018 Beitza 36a


Beitza 36a

1- We continued the Sugya of טרחה בשבת ויום טוב. There are 3 scenarios where the Chachamim allowed one (with certain limitations) to perform heavy labor.  

1- Monetary loss. – הפסד

2- Expanding a place to learn. –  ביטול בית המדרש

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3- The arrival of guest. – אורחים

2- We discussed the concept of הפסד מרובה.  Monetary loss.

We read the text of the שאילת יעב”ץ and the question posed to him by a Kehila. See here # 167.

The story in short:

A young man was owed money by a non-Jew. Being afraid that he will not be paid, he went on Shabbos! to the   בערש (market place) to find this debtor to secure his loan.

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  • Thanks to Hillel Vogel for alerting us that בערש, is bourse. See here.

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The Diamond Bourse in Antwerp Belgium


He was successful in securing his loan by finding a guarantor for this loan.

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Upon hearing what this בחור did, the Kehila wanted to punish him. Their rationale was that he did something against Halacha and also caused a חילול השם inasmuch the goyim became ‘aware that Jews can indeed work on Shabbos’.  This knowledge, claimed the Kehila, would bring about detrimental attitudes of these goyim against Jews of that town. Such as forcing Jews to come testify in court on Shabbos.

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The young man’s response was simple: I did nothing wrong. Going to the bourse and talking about open debts in not prohibited.

The response of the Yavet’z was that he has a point. Collecting a debt is not ‘commerce’ – מקח וממכר – per se which is prohibited  מדרבנן.

He quotes that some קהילות had a Minhag to announce on Shabbos from the Bima  the list of all debtors that were lax in paying their debts.

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On top of this all, writes the Yavet”z, is the הפסד מרובה angle. Had this בחור  not gone to acquire a guarantee for this debt, the borrower may have defaulted causing a loss to the lender.

He quotes our Gemara where one is allowed to perform heavy lifting, such as dragging large boxes of fruit if they might get ruined due to rain. He mentions other places in Sha’s  where הפסד מרובה is used to be lenient such as in the case of a fire, or saying to a non-jew “you won’t lose if the fire is extinguished”.

So this fellow did nothing wrong.

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But what about the potential damage to the Kehila? We discussed as to why he should be liable for this.

More interesting ideas from the Yavet”z to be continued next week, bli neder.

3- We began the Sugya of  אין כלי ניטל אלא לדבר הניטל. Meaning whether something that is not muktzeh and thus permitted to be moved around; can it be moved for the purpose of something that is muktzeh?

Image result for bike covered white tarp

As an example, a plastic tablecloth. Not a muktzeh article. Can one take this table cloth and cover an electric scooter (muktzeh) to protect it from rain?


Shiur Beitza 35b 07/10/18


Beitza 35b

1- We reviewed the Mishnah at the beginning of  the 5th and final פרק of Beitza.

It discusses the type of tedious work permitted to be performed on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

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‘Work’ does not mean  any of the 39 מלאכות that are prohibited on Shabbos and similarly, not the corresponding מלאכות that are prohibited on Yom Tov.

As an example, the Mishnah writes about ‘lowering fruits thru a skylight into the house’ when one is concerned that they will spoil by the falling rain.

2- The word for “lowering’ in our Mishna is Mashilin.  משילין

The Gemora relates that are four other variants  – נוסחאות – in the Mishna:

1- משחילין

2- משחירין

3- מנשירין  


We tried to understand the reason for this etymological discussion.

We discussed an animal which has one foot longer than the other, (the shachul), and falling olives from a tree – כי ישל זיתך. Also, a nazir may not rub clay into his hair to remove it – לא יחוף ראשו באדמה מפני שמשיר את השער – and השחור – which is a razor or scissors.

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4- Our Mishnah offers the reason for permitting working hard to ‘lower fruits thru a skylight into the house’ is due to the potential monetary loss.

The Gemara quotes a Mishnah in Shabbos where is states that ‘one may move four or five heavy boxes of produce to make room for guests and to expand the Beis Hamidrosh’.

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5- We discussed the concept of ‘monetary loss’.  הפסד מרובה.

This idea is used in some places, when there are different Halachic opinions, to allow one to rely on the lenient opinion when otherwise there would be a  ‘monetary loss’.

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6- We spoke about the famous book authored by the Ramo  תורת חטאת which  is a קיצור  of Halachos of יורה דעה.  In this ספר the Ramo relies on the concept of ‘monetary loss’   הפסד מרובה and also כיבוד אורחים.

When there are different opinions about a particular  הלכה, if there is a הפסד מרובה םר or  כיבוד אורחים involved one may rely on the lenient opinion.  

7- A contemporary of the Ramo, Reb Chaim, the brother of the Mahara”l of Prague, was upset by these leniencies. He published a book countering some of the rulings of the Ramo.

ויכוח מים רבים.

8- See here (12) where he is not pleased at the idea to be lenient using the the concept of the arrival of guests,  ‘honoring guests’, כיבוד אורחים  to rely on a lenient opinion or  פסק.

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‘Firstly, most guest are such that are not worth being honored….second the host is not that happy to see them….thirdly perhaps  the host is ‘trembling’ upon their arrival…….

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9- See here the Alter Rebbe (333, 6) where he defines ‘guests’ for which one can be lenient,  for example, to move heavy boxes to make room for them.

In short, these guest are not one’s next door neighbors who come over for a Shabbos or Yom Tov meal.

כשם שהתירו כאן לצורך אורחים כמו לצורך דבר מצוה כך בכל מקום שהתירו איזה דבר לצורך מצוה מותר ג”כ לצורך אורחים

ואינן נקראים אורחים אלא שבאו מעיר אחרת בין שנתארחו אצלו בין שזימן אורחים שנתארחו אצל אחרים

אבל כשזימן חבירו שבאותה העיר שיסעוד אצלו אינו נקרא אורח וסעודת הרשות היא

אלא אם כן זימנו לבא אצלו לכבוד האורח שיש לו שאז גם חבירו בכלל אורח לענין זה


Shiur 7/3/18 – Beitza 35a -b

Beitza 35 a-b

1- We concluded our Sugya of שבת קובעת למעשר, and made a Siyum on Perek המביא.

הדרן עלך

We see that Hillel, against all his contemporaries, is of the opinion that שבת קובעת למעשר (see last Rashi on the page).

When Ravin arrived in Bavel from Eretz Yisroel, he taught that R. Yochanan said four things do not trigger and change the status of unfinished fruit to finished. 

1- שבת – Shabbos. Unlike Hillel’s opinion above

2- תרומה – Separating Teruma before they are completed.

3- חצר –  Bringing it into the house.

4- מקח – The last point was concerning a sale, ; despite the produce being sold it does not  give the unprocessed/unfinished produce enough importance for them to become חייב במעשר.

The Gemore assumes that most ignorant people certainly give תרומה  and probably Maaser as well.

2- We began the 5th and final פרק  of Beitza.

The Mishnah discusses what type of tedious work is permitted to be performed on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

‘Work’ obviously meaning not any of the 39 מלאכות that are prohibited on Shabbos and similarly, not the corresponding מלאכות that are prohibited on Yom Tov.

As an example, the Mishnah writes about ‘lowering fruits thru a skylight into the house’.

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There is no proper מלאכה involved in doing so. The issue is the טרחה יתירה on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

3- Next week we will learn about the amount of fruit one is allowed to move. The Gemarah states: 3 boxes.

How much is a box?

3 סאה.

How much is a סאה?

144 eggs.

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We explained that the measurement of סאה, כזית etc are measurements of volume. Not weight.

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Thus a כזית of מצה  will weigh more than a כזית   of מרור lettuce.

So the סאה  is a measurement of not the weight of 144 eggs but rather the space 144 eggs take up. Volume. נפח  in Hebrew.

4- We touched the surface on the Noda BiYehuda’s opinion that the ‘eggs of our times have been reduced in size’. נתקטנו הביצים.

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5- We mentioned the Gemora in Menachos (11a, Rashi  ד”ה זו אמה  and 88a) that writes about the ‘two measuring sticks’ that were attached to the outside wall on the Beis Hamikdosh. One of an אמה plus ½ finger the other an אמה and a full finger.

  • אמות גדולות היו שתים: אחת בת ששה טפחים וחצי אצבע, והיא היתה יתרה על של משה חצי אצבע; ואחת בת ששה טפחים ואצבע, והיא היתה יתרה על של משה אצבע. ושתיהן היו נתונות ב”שושן הבירה” (כלים שם; מנחות שם) שהוא חדר שהיה בנוי על שער המזרחי של העזרה ומצוייר עליו צורת שושן הבירה (רש”י מנחות צח א ד”ה בשושן).

If archaeologists were to find these two ‘rulers’ we would have much to learn from them ……